Joe Rogan Experience #2054 - Elon Musk
Questions on ElonsFAQ asked in this interview (4)
Transcript
0:01Elon MuskJoe rogan podcast.
0:03Joe RoganCheck it out. The joe rogan experience. Join my day joe rogan podcast by night, all day,
0:16Elon MuskMy dog. Cool.
0:16Joe RoganYeah.
0:17Elon MuskIt's like looking in the mirror.
0:19Joe RoganHave you seen that before? Did people get you one of those?
0:22Elon MuskYeah.
0:23Joe RoganHe's awesome.
0:24Elon MuskHe's awesome. He's pretty edgy.
0:27Joe RoganYeah. It's amazing that he puts out a piece of art per day, 365 days a year.
0:34Elon MuskYeah. I was following him on the X platform, fka, Twitter, but some of it was too jarring.
0:40Joe RoganToo jarring. Some of the images.
0:41Elon MuskYeah.
0:42Joe RoganWell, cheers, sir. Happy Halloween. Thanks for doing this.
0:45Elon MuskAppreciate it. Welcome.
0:48Joe RoganThanks for rolling up in this cybertruck too. I got a chance to look at it in the factory, but that was almost. Was that like a year and a half ago or so, was it?
0:57Joe RoganIt was a while ago.
0:59Elon MuskYeah, a year ago, I guess.
1:00Joe RoganYeah, at least a year.
1:01Elon MuskAt least a year.
1:03Joe RoganAnd it's. It's different in real life. Like you see it in person. Like images are just. We were talking about it outside. You just can't contextualize them.
1:13Elon MuskYes.
1:13Joe RoganIt looks so odd that you have to see it in the flesh.
1:17Elon MuskIt looks like computer graphics in reality.
1:20Joe RoganYeah. It's the coolest looking fucking production car that's ever been made.
1:23Elon MuskIt's bulletproof. Literally. Literally.
1:26Joe RoganYeah.
1:27Elon MuskOne of the videos we're going to show is just going all like, poor Al Capone. Just like Al Capone showed up and emptied, you know, the entire magazine of a Tommy gun into the side of the car.
1:40Elon MuskYou'd be okay.
1:40Joe RoganThe only thing that's not bulletproof is the glass.
1:43Elon MuskThe glass is optionally bulletproof.
1:44Joe RoganOh, it is optional.
1:45Elon MuskIf you want it, you can, well, you can make anything bulletproof if you want, but the glass has to be very thick for to be bulletproof, so it can't go up and down.
1:53Elon MuskSo if you want fixed glass, then
1:56Joe Roganhow do you order? Drive thru.
1:57Elon MuskYeah, exactly.
1:58Joe RoganYeah, that's probably awkward. You gotta pull ahead, open the door, get out.
2:03Elon MuskBut it's okay, you can just duck.
2:05Joe RoganYeah, you just duck. How far away are you from full, like delivering them to people. Has anybody gotten them yet?
2:14Elon MuskWe plan to drop first deliveries next month. Oh, wow.
2:18Joe RoganSo now it's just testing and fucking around.
2:23Elon MuskThe hard part by far is manufacturing, not, not designing the car. So, you know, there's just not really a movie about that. But there should be. So in the sort of the, you know, the movies will always be about the sort of inventor who invented the car.
2:43Elon MuskAnd then the job is Done right, that's invented the object. Now the job is done. This is not true. That's the easy part. The hard part is manufacturing, by far.
2:52Joe RoganWhy is it so much harder than making an individual model?
3:07Elon MuskWell, in order to make it affordable, you have to make it at volume. So you've got to make everything at high rate consistently. If you tour the production line, you'd have a sense for it.
3:25Elon MuskYou've got to have all of the casting machines, all of the stamping machines, as the case may be, the glass machines, the wheels, the tires, everything required from the motor that the battery cells, all of the constituents of the battery cells, all of the silicon that goes in there are the chips.
3:46Elon MuskThe manufacturing is somewhere between 100 and 1,000 times harder than making a prototype. Whoa. And then if you want to say, like you want to get from. Once you reach volume manufacturing, which is insanely difficult, then you want to make the car affordable.
4:02Elon MuskIt's harder to say reduce the cost of the car by 20% than it is to get to volume production in the first place. So I really cannot emphasize enough how hard production is relative to design.
4:19Elon MuskI'm not saying design is trivial because you have to have taste and you have to know what to make. If you don't have taste and judgment, then your prototype will be bad.
4:32Elon MuskBut it is trivial, really, to churn out prototypes. And it is extremely difficult to build a factory.
4:40Joe RoganAnd how much more difficult is it to make this, considering the body's made out of steel?
4:46Elon MuskVery difficult. The difficulty of manufacturing is proportionate to the amount of new technology that you have in a car and in the product. And in this case, there's a lot of new technology.
4:56Elon MuskThe production line will move as fast as the slowest and least lucky and most foolish part of the entire production line. And you could say to first approximation, there are 10,000 things that have to go right at least for production to work.
5:14Elon MuskSo if you have 9,999 things that are working and one that isn't, that sets the production rate. Yeah, that's by far the hard way. In fact, really, the amazing thing about automobiles was not so much the invention of the automobile, but the invention of the factory, the mass manufacturing.
5:37Elon MuskAnd for that, Henry Ford deserves a tremendous amount of credit. He was a next level genius. In fact, Ford is really responsible for the entire mass manufacturing industry because he actually founded Cadillac, which was the heart of General Motors.
5:53Elon MuskThen he got kicked out and then started Ford. Really? Yeah. And everyone just copied him.
5:57Joe RoganDo you know he made one of his first Cars out of hemp. Well, he used hemp fiber for panels.
6:05Elon MuskOkay. Yeah.
6:07Joe RoganThere's a fascinating video of him banging on it with a hammer. Because hemp is bizarrely durable when it's compressed and when they take the fibers and I don't know what kind of epoxy they use or something to put it all together, but what it makes with the.
6:21Joe RoganThe actual physical form of it is insanely light. Like fiberglass light, but very, very durable. See, if you find the video, it's kind of crazy. Henry Ford is banging on it.
6:32Joe RoganWas the hood of it with a hammer.
6:34Elon MuskThere it is.
6:35Joe RoganSo this was like, look at that.
6:40Elon MuskIsn't that crazy as well?
6:45Joe RoganI don't know why they stopped making them out of that. That was from 1941. How much does the cybertruck weigh?
6:53Elon MuskIt depends on configuration, but it's about £7,000. There's different versions, but 6, 6, £7,000. It's like similar to. It's a heavy truck, like a Ford
7:06Joe RoganF250 or something like that.
7:07Elon MuskYeah.
7:09Joe RoganAnd it. Because of all of the metal and the weight and everything like that, but with the engines that you have, it's still. The zero to 60 is pretty bizarre, right?
7:20Joe RoganIt's like three, five or something like that.
7:23Elon MuskWell, I mean, get the zero to 60 below three seconds below three. Yes. Wow. For the, you know, the Beast mode version. So we've got a Beast Mode version that's.
7:36Elon MuskSo there's. Well, I don't want to give it all away right now, but there are three demonstrations, one of them people are aware of, which is, you know, emptying a tommy gun into the side of the car.
7:53Elon MuskA shotgun. 45 and a 9 mil and no penetrations.
7:57Joe RoganWow.
7:58Elon MuskAnd it comes that way from the factory.
8:01Joe RoganCan I try it with an arrow?
8:02Elon MuskYeah, it'll be fine. You think so? I mean, I bet I can get in there. Crossbow.
8:07Joe RoganMight I have a 90 pound compound bow that shoots 520 grain arrows at 300ft per second with a razor sharp broadhead.
8:21Elon MuskWe'll try right now if you want.
8:22Joe RoganI wish I had it with me. I don't.
8:26Elon MuskIs it at your house or something? Yeah. Should we send someone to go get it? We could do the demo tonight.
8:30Joe RoganThat would be interesting.
8:32Elon MuskMaybe I'll drive back with an arrow sticking out of my car.
8:34Joe RoganI bet I could get in there.
8:36Elon MuskOkay. I'll bet you can't. Really? Yeah, I'll bet your dollar.
8:38Joe RoganDamn.
8:40Elon MuskI'd like. I think if you have a crossbow that's with enough force, you might A crossbow.
8:47Joe RoganThe thing about a crossbow is the bolt. Even though it's very fast, it's not going to be nearly as heavy. You won't have any.
8:54Elon MuskYou can make a heavy crossbow bolt.
8:57Joe RoganYou could. Yeah. But generally crossbow bolts are considerably lighter. They're much smaller, and they're much faster. They're moving at like 400, 500ft per second, easy.
9:09Elon MuskYeah. I mean, the thing that matters is kind of the energy per unit area. So. Interesting. Like a 9 mole or 45, which is basically sort of a 10 molecule.
9:24Elon MuskThe 45 is. They're roughly the same, but the 45 actually is slightly worse penetration than a 9 mil.
9:30Joe RoganYou know what I just realized? I do have some broadheads. I do have some broadheads and I have a less powerful bow, but I have an 80 pound bow right there.
9:39Joe RoganI think we should do it.
9:40Elon MuskAbsolutely.
9:40Joe RoganOkay, well, you want to do it right now?
9:42Elon MuskYeah, we can do it right now.
9:43Joe RoganOkay, let's do it right now. Right now.
9:44Elon MuskFuck yeah. Let's do it. Sick.
9:47Joe RoganWe'll be right back.
9:48Elon MuskThis could be funny. I'm just like, why does he have an arrow sticking out of his car?
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10:53Elon MuskBring it back. Just don't, don't, you know, have the arrow come back. And I mean, just beware of ricochets. I'm like, you might want to do it at a slight angle.
11:19Elon MuskYou know what I mean?
11:40Elon MuskYeah.
11:41Joe RoganFlattened tip of the arrow. Look at the tip of the broadhead. That's impressive.
11:50Elon MuskHey, cutie.
11:52Joe RoganThank you. Well, now we know. So we just shot an arrow into it and it barely scratched it. Barely scratched it. Yeah, it was probably moving 275ft a second.
12:06Joe RoganThat was a 525 grain ish arrow with. Yeah, even more than that because it had the 125 grain head. So that was 545 grains. That's impressive. Yeah, very impressive.
12:20Joe RoganIt just destroyed the broadhead. Broadhead flattened at the tip and then the arrow blew apart.
12:25Elon MuskYeah.
12:26Joe RoganAmazing.
12:27Elon MuskYeah. It's like I said you could. We have a cool video we'll show at the handover event next month, which is emptying an entire magazine of a Tommy gun, which I think is like on the order of 50 rounds, just going full Al Capone, you know, like on the side of the car.
12:43Elon MuskShotgun. 9 mil. 45.
12:45Joe RoganAnd you built it like this just for fun?
12:47Elon MuskWell, I mean, because it's cooler. I mean, because you can, you know, trucks are supposed to be tough, right? Yeah. So is your truck bulletproof?
12:59Joe RoganNo, mine's definitely not exactly. And if I shot mine with my. My bow, it'd go right through it. 100%.
13:05Elon MuskIf you shoot any normal car, unlike in the movies where people hide behind car doors, a car door is basically very thin, mild steel. So if you. If you shoot a gun at a.
13:18Elon MuskThrough. Through like a regular truck, it'll go out. It'll go through both doors. So it's. You can't hide behind a car door like they do in the movies. You know, way back in the day, dating myself.
13:30Elon MuskBut the A team where they would, like, there'd be like bullets flying everywhere and they'd be hiding behind the car door.
13:36Joe RoganRight.
13:36Elon MuskThat doesn't work, but it does in a cybertruck. Was there ever apocalyptic technology? Yeah, well, you don't know.
13:46Joe RoganIt's an amazing car to have in the apocalypse.
13:48Elon MuskYeah.
13:48Joe RoganDoesn't it also. Does it still do this thing where the ride height raises and there's also no regular drivetrain, so there's no axles that are the impediment to going over rocks and things like that.
14:01Elon MuskYeah. Normally in a. In other vehicles, gasoline or diesel vehicles, you've got the differential, which hangs down low between the rear wheels. So you look under a truck, there's almost always a differential there that's hanging down pretty low.
14:16Elon MuskSo if you hit the diff on a rock, you'll break it. The bottom of the cybertruck is completely flat and has the best clear height of any vehicle.
14:27Joe RoganHow far away are we, if it's ever going to happen at all, from having a vehicle that can operate entirely on solar?
14:35Elon MuskWell, you've got a surface area thing, so it's about a kilowatt per square meter normal to the sun roughly. So you just, it really depends on what kind of mileage you can't.
14:51Elon MuskYou don't have enough surface area to keep the car going just from the car surface area. But if you had like something that folded out, you could, you could make it self sustaining.
15:02Joe RoganSomething that folded out so like you could park it and then leave it on.
15:06Elon MuskYeah, you'd have to like unfold like the Starlink satellites do, where you unfold the solar panels. You just need more surface area.
15:15Joe RoganIs there any potential for an advancement in technology that would make a smaller area much better at conducting sun? Nothing.
15:25Elon MuskNo, it's a kilowatt per square meter. That's what you're going to get when the sun, if you're normal to the sun. So 90 degrees to the sun and
15:33Joe Roganthere's nothing that could accelerate that or.
15:35Elon MuskNo, that's just literally the solar energy.
15:37Joe RoganThat's just it.
15:38Elon MuskYeah. So then you multiply your efficiency by that. So if your commercial panel is like maybe 25% efficient, if they're a good one, so you get like 250 watts per square meter.
15:49Joe RoganThere was one, what was it like a Fisker that was using a solar panel that claimed that it was operating like the, the electronics, like it could start the radio.
16:00Elon MuskYeah, I mean you can definitely. It just don't have enough surface area for it. But like, but you can, like certainly you could run a house with solar. With the solar roof and the Tesla solar roof, you can run a house,
16:20Joe Roganbut it's never going to get to a point where you can just have a car that's made out of solar panels that it could drive around. It could never be that efficient.
16:27Elon MuskCorrect. You do not have enough surface area.
16:30Joe RoganWhat research or what breakthroughs have been made in terms of battery technology? Like how far away are we from having batteries that are far more efficient and last far longer?
16:42Joe RoganI know there's some talk of sodium based batteries.
16:48Elon MuskBattery range is not a problem at this point. I mean, the model s will go 400 miles. Model model 3, model Y will do over 300 miles. So that's more than most people need.
17:02Elon MuskSo. Yeah, right.
17:04Joe RoganBut are we, I mean, how far away are we from making batteries that are more efficient? This is like we obviously haven't at least.
17:12Elon MuskWhat I'm saying is this is not really a constraint. The point at which you've got a car that can do, let's say even at highway speeds, 250 miles, or let's say turn 40 miles at 80 miles an hour.
17:27Elon MuskNow you're driving for three hours straight. And so if you start a trip at say 9am, by noon, you want to stop for lunch, go to the restroom, grab a coffee, by the time you come back, your car is charged.
17:40Joe RoganHow long does it take to fully charge?
17:44Elon MuskYeah, like half an hour. Well, you don't want to. The people will get used to it because it's a little different. Like for a gasoline car you'd want to fill it up.
17:56Elon MuskFor an electric car, you'd want to actually go very close to zero. And the car can calculate how much range it has with precision. So if you plug, say enter a road trip in a Tesla, it'll calculate all of the superchargers along the way, where you should stop, how much you should charge, and just let the computer do its thing and it'll work well.
18:18Elon MuskSo you actually want to charge to about 80% and then run it down all the way to 10% or less.
18:25Joe RoganDo you want to do that on everyday use as well or just with long trips?
18:29Elon MuskNo, just long trips. If you're trying to minimize the amount of time you stop when charging. So let's say you want to stop for 20, 30 minutes, then you really.
18:45Elon MuskIt's a little counterintuitive because for a gasoline car you would fill it up. For a battery, the charge state tapers off as you get above 80%. You can think of it like the.
18:56Elon MuskI think the right analogy here is cars in a parking lot. So the lithium ions are trying to find a parking space as they move across from one side of the batteries to the other side from, you know, cathode anode.
19:11Elon MuskI mean they're sort of just. These ions are just bouncing around looking for a parking space. So when the parking lot's empty, they can zip right in there and find a spot.
19:21Elon MuskIt's easy as the parking lot gets full. Just like trying to find a parking space at a mall. You have to hunt around for a spot. And that's how basically what's going on is the ions are looking for a parking spot.
19:34Elon MuskSo as the battery gets, they're closer to full. It's harder and harder to find a spot. They have to bounce around more.
19:41Joe RoganSo it takes longer. From 80 to 100.
19:43Elon MuskCorrect. Getting from 80 to 100 takes about as much time as getting from 0 to 80. Just think of like the ions you got to find a parking spot.
19:54Elon MuskAnd just like if you're in a mall and you're like, and it's busy, then it takes longer to find a parking spot than if it's empty.
20:01Joe RoganSo essentially you're satisfied with the technology that's available right now in terms of like the amount of mileage that you get out of it and things along those lines.
20:11Elon MuskYeah. Range is not an issue. Cost is more of an issue. So just make the car affordable. A long range car needs to be affordable.
20:19Joe RoganWhen you fully roll out, how many of those things, how many cybertrucks can you guys make a month?
20:29Elon MuskWe're aiming to make about 200,000 a year at volume production. Wow. Maybe a little more. But I just can't emphasize enough that manufacturing is much, much harder than the initial design.
20:45Elon MuskYou know, not that the cybertruck was easy to design. I'm not trying to trivialize design. It's just. What I'm trying to do is to emphasize the difficulty of manufacturing, which is not understood by the public because there's no movie about it.
21:02Elon MuskSo there's lots of movies about the sort of wild inventor in the garage, but the. I'm not aware of any movie about manufacturing. Have you ever heard of a movie about manufacturing?
21:16Joe RoganI can't remember any Jamie, any movie about manufacturing coming in my brain, but I don't think that's what it's even about. So I have no idea. What is that?
21:23Joe RoganThe. Michael Keaton was making some cars in somewhere. I was gonna look it up.
21:27Elon MuskI mean, it's Tommy Boy.
21:29Joe RoganYes. Tommy Boy's the only one.
21:31Elon MuskGreat movie.
21:32Joe RoganIt's a great movie. That might be the only one. That's interesting that it's such an immense part of American culture and also the decline of some American cities. I mean, it's famously documented in Roger and Me, which great documentary where he just talks about how Flint got destroyed when they pulled out the car manufacturing.
21:54Elon MuskYeah, yeah. I mean, there's a reason why generally politicians really try very hard to get a factory in their area, is because it's a massive generator of jobs. And for every factory job, there's like five, roughly five support jobs.
22:10Elon MuskYou know, so it's like teachers, electricians, plumbers, lawyers, accountants, whatnot, restaurants. So manufacturing is kind of like a nucleus from which many jobs spring. That's why it's generally governors and prime ministers and presidents will try so hard to get a factory in their country or region.
22:36Joe RoganWhen you decided to build the Gigafactory and when you decided just. Even when you decided to get involved with Tesla, did you have any idea of how difficult this would be?
22:45Joe RoganDid you have a preconceived Notion.
22:48Elon MuskI thought it would be pretty difficult. I thought our probability of success was less than 10%. Whoa. Yeah. I mean, it would be foolish to think anything else other than that.
22:57Elon MuskI mean, even at this point, the only car companies that have not gone bankrupt are Ford and Tesla. American car companies. General Motors went bankrupt and Chrysler went bankrupt in 2009.
23:12Elon MuskThere's some chance they'll go bankrupt again. Ford and Tesla. Barely made. Was incredibly difficult to keep Tesla alive when General Motors and Chrysler were going bankrupt. So. Because manufacturing is the actual hard thing.
23:29Elon MuskNot that by far the hard thing. I just can't emphasize that enough, and I hope somebody makes a movie about that.
23:36Joe RoganMaybe they should make a movie about Tesla. Sure, why not?
23:41Elon MuskPerfect.
23:41Joe RoganWho would you want to play you?
23:43Elon MuskI don't care.
23:44Joe RoganHow about David Spade?
23:46Elon MuskAnyone?
23:47Joe RoganNo, I don't care. I'm kidding.
23:49Elon MuskI don't care if anyone plays me. But I do think that I just
23:51Joe Roganwent back to Tommy Boy.
23:53Elon MuskYeah, I know. He rocks. So, you know Jim Farley is the CEO of Ford and he's Chris Farley's cousin.
24:02Joe RoganNo way.
24:03Elon MuskYes.
24:04Joe RoganWow. That's crazy. Yes, that's crazy.
24:07Elon MuskAnd they look. I mean, they look related.
24:14Joe RoganYeah. There should be a movie.
24:17Elon MuskYeah, I just.
24:18Joe RoganYou got to get someone good that doesn't fuck it up. Someone doesn't.
24:22Elon MuskWell, I mean, the thing is, writers are just disconnected from manufacturing. They just never see it, so.
24:29Joe RoganRight.
24:30Elon MuskAnd I guess you have to try to create some narrative arc. I mean, there are some shows like how it's made type of thing, but they're pretty niche.
24:46Elon MuskBut I know somewhat of a broken record here, but I can't emphasize enough that it is insanely difficult to manufacture.
24:53Joe RoganMakes sense. Well, it particularly makes sense when something. That novel something is. But ultimately cool as fuck. What has it been like? You've owned X for a year now.
25:09Elon MuskOh, yeah.
25:11Joe RoganDo you ever wake up in the
25:12Elon Muskmiddle of the night and have a
25:13Joe Rogandream that you didn't do it
25:16Elon Muskand
25:17Joe Roganyour life is infinitely easier?
25:19Elon MuskWell, it's certainly a recipe for trouble, I suppose, or contention.
25:27Joe RoganWhat was it ultimately that led you to make the decision to do it?
25:37Elon MuskI mean, this is going to sound somewhat melodramatic, but I was worried about that it was having a corrosive effect on civilization, that I was just having a bad.
25:50Elon MuskA bad impact. And I think part of it is that it's where it was located, which is, you know, downtown San Francisco. And while I think San Francisco is a beautiful city and we should really fight hard to kind of.
26:09Elon MuskRight. The Ship of San Francisco. If you walked around downtown San Francisco, right near the XFK Twitter headquarters, it's a zombie apocalypse. I mean, it's rough. Have you been in that area?
26:22Joe RoganNot lately, no.
26:23Elon MuskI've heard it's crazy.
26:25Joe RoganI've heard it's crazy. I've heard you really can't believe it until you actually go there.
26:29Elon MuskYou can't believe it until you go there. So now you have to say, well, what philosophy led to that outcome? And that philosophy was being piped to Earth. So a philosophy that would be ordinarily quite niche and geographically constrained, so the sort of.
26:47Elon MuskThe fallout area would be limited. Whereas effectively, given an information, a weapon, an information technology weapon to propagate what is essentially a mine virus to the rest of Earth.
27:05Elon MuskAnd the outcome of that mine virus is very clear. If you walk around the streets of downtown San Francisco, it is the end of civilization.
27:13Joe RoganAnd it's not just propagating the mind virus, but suppressing any opposing viewpoints.
27:19Elon MuskYes. Well, in order for the virus to propagate, it must suppress opposing both viewpoints
27:25Joe Roganbecause it doesn't stand up to scrutiny.
27:27Elon MuskCorrect.
27:29Joe RoganYeah.
27:29Elon MuskI mean, you've felt the virus. Yeah, yeah. People try to cancel you so many times.
27:36Joe RoganYeah. It's fascinating.
27:38Elon MuskYeah.
27:39Joe RoganI don't think you're melodramatic at all. I think it's a. I mean, I don't want to be melodramatic, but it's almost like a death cult.
27:48Elon MuskIt's a death cult. No, no, that is exactly right. It's essentially the extinctionists, like, it's in the limit. It is that they're propagating the extinction of humanity and civilization.
28:05Elon MuskAnd there's some people who are like, most of the time it's implicit. They don't. But sometimes it's explicit. Like there was a guy on the front page of the New York Times who literally has the thing called the extinctionist movement, and he was quoted on the front page of the New York Times as saying, there are 8 billion people in the world, but it would be better if there were none.
28:25Elon MuskAnd I'm like, well, buddy, you can start with yourself. Yeah.
28:29Joe RoganDoes he have friends? That's what always fascinates me. Well, here he is, that guy. He looks like, you're not long for this Earth.
28:37Elon MuskI mean, he doesn't.
28:38Joe RoganVoluntary human extinction movement. That's hilarious. Spent. I'd like to party with that, dude. I would just like to. Like,
28:47Elon Muskthat's an explicit version of the death cult.
28:49Joe RoganYeah. Maybe extinction live and die out.
28:51Elon MuskI mean, it's not Extinction is a word he uses.
28:56Joe RoganYes.
28:56Elon MuskNo. I mean it's literally a self description.
29:01Joe RoganDid they cover him?
29:02Elon MuskWas in charge of social media and still largely is at Google and Facebook by the way. So I'm like I'm not in favor of human extinction. They are and they can go to hell.
29:17Joe RoganWell that guy is.
29:19Elon MuskYeah, he can go to hell.
29:20Joe RoganThat guy seems silly. I would like to hang out with him though. I would like to find out what makes him tick. I bet that guy's fascinating this episode is brought to you by DraftKings.
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31:22Joe RoganI know there's a whole lot of people changing jobs right now and a whole lot of places hiring. Which means if it's your job to hire, you are probably slammed.
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32:49Elon MuskI'm pro environment, but in the limit. If you take environmentalism to an extreme, you start to view humanity as a plague on the surface of the earth, like a mold or something.
33:07Elon MuskBut this is actually false. The Earth could take probably 10 times the current civilization. The population could be. You could 10x the population without destroying the rainforest. So the environmental movement, and I'm an environmentalist, has gone too far.
33:23Elon MuskThey've gone way too far. If you start thinking that humans are bad, then the natural conclusion is humans should die out. Now I'm headed to an AI Safety International sort of AI Safety conference latest night, leaving in about three hours and meet with the British Prime Minister, a number of the people.
33:49Elon MuskSo you have to say, like, how could AI go wrong? Well, if AI gets programmed by the extinctionists, its utility function will be the extinction of humanity.
34:03Joe RoganYeah, clearly.
34:04Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
34:05Joe RoganI mean, particularly if they won't even
34:07Elon Muskthink it's bad, like that guy.
34:08Joe RoganRight? Yeah. If you let AI there's a lot of decisions that AI would make that would be very similar to eugenics. I mean, there would be some radical changes in what people are allowed to and not allowed to do that, allow them to survive.
34:25Joe RoganThat may be detrimental in terms of like pollution and things like that, but it may be the only solution they have in their area. I mean, maybe AI would come up with some sort of a different structure in terms of how they get power
34:35Elon Muskand resources, but there's no shortage of power. Like we talked about solar power for cars. The issue is the cars just have a very low service area, but you could actually power the entire United States with 100 miles by 100 miles of solar.
34:53Elon MuskReally? Yes.
34:55Joe RoganSo you can just pick some dead spot that you fly over of which there are plenty of, COVID that sucker up with solar panels and charge the whole country.
35:02Elon MuskAbsolutely.
35:02Joe Rogan24, 7.
35:03Elon MuskYou need batteries, but yes.
35:05Joe RoganYeah. Wow.
35:07Elon MuskYeah, it's not hard. I mean, it's like. It's very feasible, in fact, I mean, the sun is converting over 4 million tons of mass to energy every second. And it's no maintenance.
35:19Elon MuskThat thing just works. We have a giant fusion reactor in the sky. That is the sun. In fact, people like, someone's like, what about in a radiation. I'm like, the sun is literally a nuclear reactor in the sky.
35:34Joe RoganYeah.
35:34Elon MuskAre you scared to go in daylight?
35:38Joe RoganRocks of radiation.
35:39Elon MuskYes. The radiation risk is greatly overestimated. You know, I always wonder why radiation
35:48Joe Roganis always bad in real life, but always awesome in comic books.
35:52Elon MuskYeah.
35:52Joe RoganRight.
35:53Elon MuskGet bitten by a radioactive spider, and suddenly you have spider abilities.
35:56Joe RoganGet hit with gamma rays, you burn the hole.
35:58Elon MuskWhat if you're radioactive with cockroach? You'd be like the cockroach man. Yeah.
36:01Joe RoganYou can be one of the X Men.
36:03Elon MuskYeah.
36:04Joe RoganYeah.
36:05Elon MuskI think the problem is most people just don't understand what radiation is. And so it just sounds like a mysterious, invisible death ray.
36:14Joe RoganWell, it's almost like drugs. Like, we think of it, we put a blanket over it. Like, it's all one thing. You know, radiation is Chernobyl.
36:23Elon MuskI mean, the thing is, you can go to. You can actually tour Chernobyl right now.
36:26Joe RoganCan you really?
36:27Elon MuskYes.
36:28Joe RoganYou can actually go to where the meltdown.
36:30Elon MuskWell, I mean, there's a war zone. But apart from that, the issue is, you know, more getting shot than it is. You don't have a radiation risk. I mean, the problem is, I think when people don't understand what radiation is, they just.
36:43Elon MuskThey can't see it, they can't feel it. They think, well, I could just die at any moment. Like from a magic death ray. Right. You know, I've had people say, like, oh, the radiation from their phone is going to hurt them, or they're scared of the microwave.
36:54Elon MuskI'm like, when you say radiation, do you mean particles or photons? And if you mean photons, what wavelength? And they're like, I don't know what you mean. They don't know anything about that.
37:03Elon MuskRight.
37:04Joe RoganThey just have. They're afraid of the term. But because of Three Mile island and Fukushima, we've been, yeah, but nobody died
37:11Elon Muskof radiation from Fukushima. Not one person. True. In fact, but I was asked by people in California, like, when Fukushima happened, whether radiation would get to California, and I'm like, that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard.
37:24Elon MuskAnd so actually, to help support Japan, I Flew to Fukushima and ate locally grown vegetables on tv. And I'm still alive.
37:34Joe RoganI have a friend, he's very smart, but he won't eat fish out of the Pacific because he's worried about the radiation from Fukushima.
37:42Elon MuskYeah, that's. That's irrational. There is no physics substance to that, I would say, at all. Not even slightly.
37:50Joe RoganI'm gonna send him this clip.
37:51Elon MuskYes. Go back to the sushi place, bro. Now, you should be okay. If you eat too much tuna, you're gonna have mercury. Yes, correct. Mercury poisoning from tuna is a real thing.
38:02Joe RoganYou can get arsenic from sardines, too. I found that out the hard way. Really? Yeah.
38:06Elon MuskAte too many sardines.
38:07Joe RoganYeah. I got my blood work done, and the doctor says, you have arsenic in your blood. And I go, is someone poisoning me? He goes, that's very, very low level.
38:15Elon MuskIt's like, is your girlfriend angry at you?
38:18Joe RoganHe does make frustrations like that. And I said, yeah, I eat like, three cans of sardines a night. That's a lot of sardines, man. Yeah, I love sardines.
38:25Elon MuskI mean, it's.
38:27Joe RoganI love them. I really do. I've always loved sardines.
38:32Elon MuskOkay. I love them, but turns out, like, you can't eat too much of it because they.
38:36Joe RoganYeah, they're not good for you.
38:37Elon MuskOkay.
38:37Joe RoganYeah, Yeah.
38:37Elon MuskI mean, a little sardines once in a while, but not three cans a night.
38:40Joe RoganWell, for me, it's like I come home late from the comedy club and once, something easy to eat, and I
38:44Elon Muskdon't want to open a can of
38:45Joe Rogansardines food, so I open up a few cans of sardines and I'll, you know, watch a little tv, eat a few cans. I'll do it every night. And then I stopped doing it, and I got my blood work done.
38:55Joe RoganA couple months later, it was gone.
38:56Elon MuskYeah. So I think anchovies really, really pep up a Caesar salad.
39:01Joe RoganYeah, they do. I'm a fan. I'm a fan of anchovies as well. One of my favorite pizzas ever is pineapple and anchovy.
39:08Elon MuskOkay.
39:08Joe RoganDouble pineapple, double anchovy. It's amazing. That's the sweet and the salty. And then you got the tomato sauce and the cheese. My favorite pizza. Very good.
39:19Elon MuskI mean, as a kid, I was, like, very much against Hawaiian pizza. And as an adult, I like it.
39:24Joe RoganHawaiian's good. But I'm telling you, anchovies and pineapple is the bomb diggity.
39:29Elon MuskThat's the bomb diggity. I'll give It a shot.
39:31Joe RoganThat's the bomb. Diggity.
39:32Elon MuskWait, can we order some right now? Is that feasible?
39:35Joe RoganI bet we could.
39:36Elon MuskOkay, let's try it. That'd be sick.
39:38Joe RoganYeah. Have Jeff order a very large pizza with double pineapple, double anchovies.
39:47Elon MuskGreat. Fantastic. I'm hungry.
39:53Elon MuskNo time like the present. Enjoy life.
39:55Joe RoganWell, there's got to be a good spot around here. We'll find a good spot and tell them it's for us. They'll.
40:00Elon MuskThey'll cook it up.
40:02Joe RoganIf they won't.
40:04Elon MuskIf they won't chisel on the pizza.
40:05Joe RoganAll right, we'll mention their name. Mention their name on the podcast.
40:12Elon MuskDon't tell them it's us.
40:13Joe RoganYeah, tell them it's us.
40:14Elon MuskIt.
40:15Joe RoganIf they're going to close, tell them we'll mention that.
40:17Elon MuskWhat is this? What is this salty sauce that's so mysterious?
40:22Joe RoganOh, no. Right? Don't tell them it's us. Good call. Yeah, don't tell them it's us. Make sure you don't buy it from any.
40:30Elon MuskWhat is the salty, tangy substitution?
40:31Joe RoganDon't buy it from East Austin. Don't buy it from anyone who still wears a mask. There's a lot of them out there. There's a lot of them out there.
40:42Joe RoganThey're still masked up. It's wild.
40:44Elon MuskYeah. Once in a while I see someone paranoid. I'm like, on the street. Yeah.
40:48Joe RoganI saw a guy on the street the other day just walking around with a mask on, like, okay, buddy, you look like you're about 28 years old.
40:53Elon MuskYeah.
40:54Joe RoganI think you're gonna be okay. You're probably not gonna be okay. Breathing that fucking same air in that mask. And all the bacteria spitting out. Yeah, it's attaching to that cloth.
41:04Elon MuskYeah. Masks are not like some magic health shield. I mean, there are times where, you know, masks warranted. Like if a surgeon is operating on you or whatever, then you know what the surgeon spitting in your wound, you know?
41:19Elon MuskBut most of the time, a mask is not good for you.
41:22Joe RoganIf you can breathe out of it, that means you can. You're breathing in. That means you're also exhaling. So, like, how much is it filtering? Like, what is it?
41:33Elon MuskIt's like a. I'd say like a mask is much like sort of a shield in battle in that, you know, it'll help protect you a little bit from arrows and stuff, but it doesn't make you arrow proof.
41:44Elon MuskWe're just talking about shooting arrows and stuff, right? There's. I mean, there are times when masks are warranted but most of the time it's actually counterproductive.
41:53Joe RoganWell, that was one of the things about the old Twitter was the propaganda and the adherence to whatever the CDC was saying and the dismissing of legitimate scientists, guys like Jay Bhattachara from Stanford and legit guys.
42:13Elon MuskYes.
42:13Joe RoganAnd they were suppressing them and even banning them. They banned Alex Berenson. I mean, it was wild. They banned Alex for essentially reading peer reviewed papers.
42:25Elon MuskYeah, no, I mean all Twitter was basically an arm of the government.
42:30Joe RoganYeah. So was that shocking? Like, what was that like is that. To me, that was the most bizarre was the Twitter files. When you let Schellenberger and Matt Taibbi and all those guys get in the Twitter and the response where Matt Taibbi gets audited.
42:44Joe RoganI mean, which is just wild. I mean, just so blatant and so in your face.
42:49Elon MuskYeah, it's weird. No, I mean the degree to which. And by the way, Jack didn't really know this, but the degree to which Twitter was simply an arm of the government was not well understood by the public.
43:05Elon MuskAnd it was, There was no, it was whatever the official government. It was like Pravda, basically. You know, a state publication is the way to think of old Twitter.
43:15Elon MuskIt was a state publication and was
43:17Joe Roganthe justification, from their perspective that they are progressive liberals, they have the right intentions, it's important that they stay in power. The progressive liberals stay in government and power because this is, this is their.
43:33Elon MuskThere was basically oppression of any views that would even, I would say be considered middle of the road. But certainly anything on the right. I'm not talking about like far right, I'm just talking mildly right.
43:50Elon MuskLike Republicans were suppressed at 10 times the rate of Democrats. Now that's because old Twitter was fundamentally controlled by the far left. It was like completely controlled by the far left.
44:03Elon MuskAnd that's why I say like San Francisco Berkeley is a niche ideology. It's hard to say, like, is there a place that's more far left than San Francisco Berkeley?
44:13Joe RoganMaybe Portland.
44:14Elon MuskMaybe Portland. But it's like it's right there. Yeah, it's. Those two places are the most far left places in America.
44:23Joe RoganYes.
44:25Elon MuskSo from their standpoint, everything is to the right, including moderates.
44:31Joe RoganRight, Right.
44:32Elon MuskSo now if you internalize a far left position, everything seems wrong to you. That is not far left. And so they naturally oppressed anything that didn't agree with their views.
44:49Elon MuskThat's why I say that it was an accidental far left information weapon. So because it's like Silicon Valley attracts the smartest Engineers, the smartest sort of technologists and programmers from around the world.
45:07Elon MuskThey created an information weapon that was then harnessed by the far left who could not themselves create the weapon, but happened to be co located where the technologists were.
45:18Joe RoganIt happened to be aligned politically with the people that possessed it.
45:21Elon MuskThe technologists generally are moderate, maybe moderate left. They're not far left. That's why I say San Francisco, Berkeley. It doesn't even extend to South San Francisco or even to Palo Alto.
45:36Elon MuskSo SF Berkeley is the most far left, perhaps in a competition with Portland, but I'd say SF Berkeley is more far left even than Portland. Literally in America we're talking about an area that's maybe a 10 mile radius.
45:54Elon MuskAnd so normally the, the effects, the negative effects of a far left ideology that would be geographically limited to a 10 mile radius that's like not. It's small. So any bad effects of that ideology would be geographically constrained under normal circumstances and have been in the past.
46:16Elon MuskBut when you have basically a technological megaphone, which was Twitter and social media in general, suddenly the far left are handed a megaphone to Earth, an incredibly powerful technology weapon that they themselves could not create, but they happened to be co located with the technologists who created it by accident.
46:46Joe RoganIs it shocking that more people don't understand how dangerous that is?
46:51Elon MuskI think some people understand.
46:54Joe RoganSome people do.
46:55Elon MuskSome people understand. So I mean, from the standpoint of some people who used to be at Twitter, the people were like, well, it's a big shift to the right.
47:03Elon MuskThat is correct. It is a shift to the right because everything is to the right. If you're far left, everything is to the right. But how many far left people have actually been suspended or banned From Twitter now?
47:16Elon MuskX0 so it's really just moved to the center, but from the perspective of the far left, it's moved to the right. It's like everything's relative. The
47:32Joe Rogandifference in moderation.
47:33Elon MuskI should say. It propagated that far left philosophy not just to America, but to everywhere on earth, right? Yeah, yeah.
47:42Joe RoganAnd with the same level of suppression in other countries as well. Yes, but the Taliban is on Twitter, right?
47:52Elon MuskLike I always think of like hey Mr. Taliban, tally me banana. Hey Mr. Taliban.
48:00Joe RoganI mean there. But there's definitely some people on Twitter
48:03Elon Muskthat are daylight coming, I want to go. Yeah. So the point is, from my standpoint is that X fk Twitter should represent the sort of collective consciousness of humanity.
48:26Elon MuskNow that means that there are going to be views on there that you don't like or disagree with.
48:36Elon MuskBut that's humanity. So are you going to exclude them or not? Now, I mean, if somebody, you know, breaks the law, then the account is suspended. I mean, if they actively advocate murder, then the account is suspended.
48:51Elon MuskWe do have what we call, like the kind of United nations exclusion rule, which is that you can have, say, the ayatollah, who, you know, would prefer that Israel didn't exist, for example, but he's allowed to go to the UN Building in New York.
49:14Elon MuskAnd in fact, generally, officials from Iran do, in fact, go to the UN Building in New York, even though they're a heavily sanctioned country. So I think that there's.
49:27Elon MuskThere's merit to having. Just like there's some merit to the U.N. one can disagree with the U.N. and I think we shouldn't have a world government that we bow down to, but, in fact, that's risky for civilization.
49:39Elon MuskBut I think you do want to have the leaders of countries represented on social media. You want to hear what they have to say, even if what they say is terrible.
49:51Joe RoganI think that is true across the board. And I think one of the things you just said that's very important is that's humanity. And I think it's important that a social media platform, especially the biggest one, represents humanity.
50:05Joe RoganSo we understand what we're talking about because we have this distorted idea of what people think and want and need. Because everyone only exists inside this ideological bubble, and anything outside of that bubble gets censored.
50:17Joe RoganThen that changes, literally changes the tone of the entire country. Changes what people think is okay and not okay. Makes people feel differently.
50:25Elon MuskYes.
50:26Joe RoganIt's not humanity. It's different. It's a very forced version of humanity.
50:32Elon MuskYes, absolutely.
50:33Joe RoganYeah.
50:34Elon MuskSo, I mean, the whole point of free speech. Free speech is only relevant. The First Amendment is only relevant if you allow people you don't like to say things you don't like.
50:50Elon MuskBecause if you like it, you don't need a First Amendment. So the whole point of free speech is that, frankly, even people you hate say things you hate, because if they can say people you hate can say things that you hate, that means that they can't stop you from saying what you want to say, which is very, very important.
51:11Joe RoganRight. But the problem with Twitter is it was not the case. It was people that you hate couldn't
51:17Elon Musksay anyone they didn't like. They censored.
51:19Joe RoganYeah.
51:20Elon MuskOr what's called de amplify.
51:22Joe RoganWell, not just de amplify, but under the behest of the government, would suppress real news, which was very bizarre.
51:29Elon MuskYes.
51:30Joe RoganSo they were very aware of something being accurate, and they still suppressed it because the government wanted them to suppress it.
51:38Elon MuskI mean, in my view, there have been severe First Amendment violations by multiple government agencies, and there should be repercussions for that.
51:45Joe RoganAnd is it.
51:47Elon MuskIs it.
51:48Joe RoganDo different laws apply because it's a privately owned social media company? I mean, what laws do apply in terms of, like, when you're looking at it, one of the arguments that the leftist would use is it's a private company.
52:02Joe RoganThey could do whatever they want.
52:04Elon MuskYeah. It's funny that when the shoe's on the other foot, they now say the private company can't do whatever it wants.
52:09Joe RoganWell, yeah, now they're upset.
52:12Elon MuskBut the government itself is not allowed to censor speech. But in my view, the government de facto did censor a speech, and there should at least be a case where that is heard by the public.
52:29Elon MuskBecause if the government severely coerces, you know, a platform, sort of coerces the pressure, then I think that is or should be a First Amendment violation.
52:45Joe RoganWell, they can't do it with other media forms. Right. They're not allowed to do it with any other. They're not. They're not allowed to do it.
52:52Elon MuskRight. If they try to do that with a newspaper, they'd get in trouble.
52:56Joe RoganOr could they? You know, that's the question. It's like, you didn't know about the federal government, you didn't know about the intelligence agencies inside of Twitter until we found out.
53:06Joe RoganLike, do you think that this is ubiquitous?
53:09Elon MuskIt's absolutely. All the social media companies, in fact, right now, X, or formerly known as Twitter, is the only one that is not kowtowing to the government. It's the only one.
53:22Elon MuskAll the others just do exactly what the government wants.
53:26Joe RoganThat is wild.
53:27Elon MuskYes.
53:27Joe RoganWhat I was getting at. Do you think that that's everywhere?
53:29Elon MuskYeah.
53:30Joe RoganDo you think that that's cnn? Do you think that that's the New York Times? Do you think that that's the Washington Post? Because if they were going to infiltrate media, they were going to infiltrate social media.
53:41Elon MuskI mean, it is weird the degree to which the media is in lockstep. Like, why is the media in lockstep? And why doesn't the media question the government? They used to.
53:51Elon MuskWhy don't they do that anymore? Seems weird. Something doesn't add up.
53:56Joe RoganWhat do you think? Well, there seems like there's a bunch of factors. Right. I think one of the big factors is pharmaceutical drug companies allowed to advertise on television.
54:05Joe RoganAnd we're one of two countries in the world that allow that.
54:08Elon MuskI actually agree with pharmaceutical advertising, provided it is truthful, because there could be some drug that is helpful to someone. But obviously the claims need to be accurate. So I actually think pharmaceutical advertising, if it is accurate, I think it actually, you know, play devil's advocate here.
54:25Elon MuskI think pharmaceutical advertising is generally accurate. I think that's actually okay. Now, I should say that a lot of the censorship that we see is coming indirectly from advertisers and advertising agencies and from PR companies who want a particular viewpoint pushed or are being driven by nonprofits to push a particular.
54:56Elon MuskWhat will happen is there'll be a sort of a group of nonprofits that push advertisers to advertise or not advertise in a particular platform. One often hears of the sort of George Soros bogeyman.
55:12Elon MuskBut, I mean, Soros actually, you know, he is, I believe, the top contributor to the Democratic Party. The second one was Sam Bankman Fried. Yeah. So. And Soros, I don't know.
55:26Elon MuskI mean, he had a very difficult upbringing. And in my opinion, he fundamentally hates humanity. That's my opinion.
55:38Joe RoganReally?
55:38Elon MuskYeah. I mean, well, he's doing things that erode the fabric of civilization. You know, getting DAs elected who refuse to prosecute crime. That's part of the problem in San Francisco and LA and a bunch of other cities.
55:51Elon MuskSo why would you do that?
55:55Joe RoganWas it humanity or is it just the United States as a whole?
55:59Elon MuskI mean, he's pushing things in other countries, too, not just here. Yeah. Now, George at this point is pretty old. I mean, he's not, you know, he's basically a bit senile at this point.
56:14Elon MuskBut I mean, he. And he's very smart, and he's very good at arbitrage. Famously, he shorted the British pound. That's sort of how I think he made his first money with shorting the pound.
56:29Elon MuskSo he's good at spotting basically arbitrage, like spotting value for money that other people don't see. So one of the things he noticed was that the value for money in local races is much higher than it is in national races.
56:46Elon MuskThe lowest value for money is a presidential race. Then next lowest value for money is a Senate race, then a Congress, and then. But once you get to sort of city and state district attorneys, they value money as extremely good.
57:02Elon MuskAnd Soros realized that you don't actually need to change the laws. You just need to change how they're enforced. If nobody chooses to enforce the law or the laws are differentially enforced, it's life changing laws.
57:15Elon MuskThat's what he figured out.
57:16Joe RoganBut it's with that this trend that people haven't pulled the brakes on this and have it reverse course.
57:25Elon MuskThey're pulling the brakes.
57:27Joe RoganYeah, yeah.
57:29Elon MuskPulling the brakes right now.
57:30Joe RoganYeah, you are. But you might be the only one.
57:34Elon MuskWell, I think more people should.
57:40Elon MuskMost people just don't want to rock the boat. Most people are looking for acceptance from society and they're, you know, if there's some negative press article, they're like shattered.
57:51Elon MuskI couldn't give a damn. Go ahead, make my day.
57:58Joe RoganWell, it's fascinating where if you're a high profile public figure like yourself, it's impossible to make everybody happy. So there's going to be someone who says something shitty about you.
58:10Elon MuskYeah.
58:10Joe RoganSomehow or another when it's in print, does that mean more? Because other people are gonna see this shitty thing. Well, I guess where it gets odd because essentially an article in the New York Times is just a single person's opinion and who, whatever editor gets involved.
58:26Elon MuskIt's just a lot of people will read that. I mean, less people these days, but
58:30Joe RoganI think people know that now.
58:33Elon MuskI find the New York Times these days to be hard to read.
58:36Joe RoganWell, unfortunately, they make some grave errors. Yeah, like that Hamas bombing the. No. The Israeli bombing the hospital. Yes, it's delicious.
58:53Elon MuskI mean, I think we should cut off chickfila exports. That'll bring them to the knees right away. What are you going to do? Take a chip and dip it in?
59:02Elon MuskNothing.
59:03Joe RoganWhat we need to do is introduce them to pineapple and anchovy pizza.
59:08Elon MuskI hope that's coming.
59:09Joe RoganIs that coming? Do we have a pizza name, like a company? I'll get some information. I want to make this real good pizza.
59:16Elon MuskLeone.
59:17Joe RoganOh, that's legit.
59:18Elon MuskIt's pretty close.
59:19Joe RoganOkay, there we go. Nice. Did they give us a timeline? It shouldn't take too long. They're not too far away. And it's late, so it shouldn't fit. I would have bet 20 minutes, 30 minutes, maybe max 40.
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1:02:14Joe RoganOracle.com rogan you know, that's something like
1:02:18Elon MuskI have to say, I've got a lot of respect for if somebody's like willing to make pizza late at night. Yeah, my hat is awful. I mean that is like great.
1:02:26Joe RoganAbsolutely.
1:02:27Elon MuskYou know, late night food. I appreciate the.
1:02:30Joe RoganIf you can get a really good late night meal.
1:02:32Elon MuskYeah.
1:02:32Joe RoganHats off or wigs off.
1:02:34Elon Musk100%.
1:02:35Joe RoganYeah. I'm a giant fan of very good late night food and that's one of the things that like Los Angeles really used to have. Yeah, they had a Pacific dining cart where you can get a legit steak 24 hours a day.
1:02:45Joe RoganReally? Yeah. I don't know if it's still open in downtown la. I believe the one in Santa Monica Closed. But a Pacific dining cart in downtown LA was a legit steakhouse.
1:02:55Joe RoganAnd you get it. We would leave The Comedy Store 2, 3 in the morning, get a legit steak.
1:03:01Elon MuskThat's cool.
1:03:02Joe RoganTemporarily closed. Covid got them.
1:03:06Elon MuskAnd Covid just took out so many restaurants. Crazy.
1:03:08Joe RoganIt's not coming back. Yeah, they're not coming back. Covid got 70% of the restaurants in LA at one point.
1:03:16Elon MuskWow.
1:03:17Joe RoganNot covet, I should say policies.
1:03:20Elon MuskWell, lockdowns, the mind virus. I mean, it's like, just crazy.
1:03:24Joe RoganYeah, well, that's why I moved here. One of the reasons why I moved here is we came here in May of 2020, and you could go indoors and eat in restaurants and.
1:03:32Elon MuskYeah.
1:03:32Joe RoganAnd my kids, who were pretty young at the time, 10 and 12, they were like, we want to live here. They're freaked out. Like, LA was weird.
1:03:40Elon MuskYeah. I mean, for most of COVID I was actually in South Texas building this starship factory. And, you know, we're just. No masks, no nothing. Just building a factory, building rockets.
1:03:52Elon MuskAnd then, you know, you have teams from California visit all masked up, and they'd freak out that we don't have masks, and we're like, we're still alive, man.
1:04:03Joe RoganYeah. Did you lose anybody? Did anybody from your factory die of
1:04:08Elon MuskCOVID Not that I'm aware of now. So part of it is that, like, that I kind of saw a dress rehearsal, which is that I kind of started in Wuhan.
1:04:20Elon MuskAnd So Tesla's got 20,000 employees in China. And so, you know, the first wave happened in China, and we had. Nobody died or got seriously ill. I was like, okay, well, this is, you know, can't be that bad.
1:04:38Elon MuskAnd we're not relying on government statistics. We literally know who shoot up for work, you know.
1:04:42Joe RoganRight.
1:04:44Elon MuskDid they badge in or not? And we had no one die, and no one got seriously ill. So I'm like, well, I don't know what the big deal is.
1:04:54Joe RoganWell, there's a problem that people still want to stick to this initial narrative that they believed and that they espoused. Like, they repeated it. And so they'll still fight you on this today.
1:05:07Joe RoganPeople still fight you today on the merits of the lockdowns, the importance of vaccine mandates, closing schools. There's people that stated an opinion in 2020, and they still are doing mental gymnastics to try to make it seem like that was the right choice.
1:05:25Elon MuskNo, it was just a panic.
1:05:27Joe RoganYeah.
1:05:28Elon MuskAnd a lot of deaths got ascribed to Covid that had nothing to do with COVID And in fact, I'd say in the beginning, the cure is worse than the disease because people panic too much.
1:05:39Elon MuskAnd so that somebody would get diagnosed with COVID they put them on intubated ventilator for a week, and this was going to basically cook your lungs. So if you're on pure O2 under pressure, with a tube stuck down your throat and under anesthetic, this is very bad for you.
1:05:59Elon MuskIt's one thing if you do that for a couple hours for an operation, but you do that for a week, it's going to roast your lungs. The air that we're breathing right now is 78% nitrogen, 1% argon, about 21% oxygen, and some miscellaneous.
1:06:14Elon MuskSo if you ask most people, what are you breathing? They say oxygen. No, you're breathing nitrogen. Only about a fifth of it is oxygen, and there's about 1% argon.
1:06:25Elon MuskSo I know quite a lot about life support systems because we make spaceships, and you have to keep people alive in a vacuum. So you've got to say, okay, what percentage of nitrogen, what percentage of oxygen are you going to do?
1:06:35Elon MuskWhat's the pressure going to be? And so, like, sea level pressure is about 15 pounds per square inch. And the partial pressure of oxygen being 20% is therefore roughly 3 pounds per square inch of oxygen.
1:06:51Elon MuskSo in a spacecraft, you want to, especially if you're in a space suit, you want to lower the pressure. So you want to keep the oxygen still, give people enough oxygen to function, obviously.
1:07:02Elon MuskBut you want to lower the nitrogen content so that you don't have a spacesuit that's at 15 psi, because at 15 psi, you just pop out like a balloon.
1:07:12Elon MuskIt's, like, hard to move. So you want to try to lower the pressure down to around, I don't know, 6, 7 psi, maybe even 5 psi. So you'd lower it to try to keep the oxygen.
1:07:29Elon MuskPartial pressure of oxygen roughly the same. So maybe around 3 psi, and then 3 psi of nitrogen. So you got 50, 50 mix of nitrogen and oxygen. And then you see it's getting pretty hot into that week.
1:07:44Joe RoganI'm sweating.
1:07:47Elon MuskIt's gonna be sweaty and itchy a little bit. Yeah.
1:07:49Joe RoganCan't believe people wear them all day.
1:07:51Elon MuskYeah.
1:07:52Joe RoganSo anyway, so I know a thing
1:07:55Elon Muskor two about keeping people alive in a vacuum, you know.
1:07:58Joe RoganRight.
1:07:58Elon MuskSo, you know, we designed the life support system for keeping humans alive in a vacuum, in the vacuum of space, which is very difficult. So we know quite a lot about what it takes to keep people alive.
1:08:11Elon MuskSo you do not want to feed people, you know, 100% oxygen. It's actually for an extended period of time. This is not good for you.
1:08:19Joe RoganWell, 80% of the people they put on ventilators died.
1:08:22Elon MuskYeah. So, in fact, I actually posted about that because I called doctors in Wuhan and said, what are the biggest mistakes that you made in the first wave? Those were early on.
1:08:32Elon MuskAnd they said, we put far too many people on intubated ventilators. So then I actually posted on Twitter at the time and said, hey, what I'm hearing from Wuhan is that they made a big mistake in putting people on intubated ventilators for an extended period and that this is actually what is damaging the lungs.
1:08:50Elon MuskNot Covid. It's the treatment. The cure is worse than the disease. And people yelled at me and said, I'm not a doctor. I'm like, yeah, but I do make spaceships with life support systems.
1:08:59Elon MuskWhat do you do?
1:09:01Joe RoganI like that.
1:09:02Elon MuskI twiddle knobs. I'm like, okay, great. Rock on.
1:09:06Joe RoganWell, again, there was this very bizarre narrative that you had to believe everything that the government was telling you. You had to believe everything the CDC was telling you.
1:09:16Joe RoganAnd that even as time went on and we realized, hey, it looks like this came from a fucking lab. Like, even as time went on, disputing that would get you banned.
1:09:27Joe RoganIt would get you kicked off of YouTube.
1:09:29Elon MuskYeah.
1:09:29Joe RoganI think to this day, there's certain things you're not allowed to say in regards to the vaccine on YouTube.
1:09:36Elon MuskAs I said, the only media that does not have crazy censorship at this point is X. That I'm aware of. Everyone else either. Everything else is censored.
1:09:49Joe RoganSpotify isn't. That's why this.
1:09:52Elon MuskDanielle.
1:09:52Joe RoganOh, Daniel. X, the man.
1:09:54Elon MuskYeah, he's great.
1:09:54Joe RoganI love that dude. And, you know, I think more companies should follow suit. I don't think it has to be this way. Unfortunately for us, they're. They. They're in Sweden and Stockholm.
1:10:04Joe RoganSweden. They have a very different perspective. Got a syndrome on all this.
1:10:10Elon MuskYeah.
1:10:11Joe RoganWhat is wild about nitrogen is that, like, that's mostly out nitrogen flight from fertilizer we suck out of the air.
1:10:17Elon MuskSorry, what do you mean most of
1:10:18Joe Roganthe nitrogen for fertilizer we suck out of the air?
1:10:21Elon MuskYeah. One of the. Actually the big inventions in chemistry was binding nitrogen. Nitrogen is actually fairly inert, so it's quite hard to actually pull nitrogen out of there and bind it into ammonia.
1:10:37Elon MuskBasically, the process for creating ammonia was actually very important.
1:10:40Joe RoganThe Haber method.
1:10:41Elon MuskYeah.
1:10:41Joe RoganFritz Harbor.
1:10:42Elon MuskYeah.
1:10:42Joe RoganSame guy who invented Zyklon gas.
1:10:45Elon MuskBut it was Actually very important to bind nitrogen from the air to fertilizer. So that actually was frankly, as a life saving invention at scale because you just run out of nitrogen.
1:11:07Elon MuskSo like pure nitrogen is a low energy state. So to try to bind it into fertilizer requires a lot of energy to do that. It's quite tricky. So that was a very important breakthrough.
1:11:19Joe RoganYeah. I read that 50% of the nitrogen in most people's body comes from that method. 50% of the nitrogen in most people's body that they've consumed from food.
1:11:32Elon MuskOh, yeah, yeah. Because of photo life, because of that. That might be true. It was a fundamental problem for most of civilization is how do you get nitrogen for the plants.
1:11:47Elon MuskThe limiting factor, in fact, even in the rainforest is like the nitrogen is bound nitrogen.
1:11:52Joe RoganWhat are the. When you do eventually colonize Mars, what's the idea in terms of terraforming? Is it contained ecosystems that are under domes? Like what are you planning on doing to make it habitable?
1:12:10Elon MuskWell, at first you would have to have a life support system because Mars has a low density atmosphere, only about 1% the density of Earth, and it's primarily CO2.
1:12:22Elon MuskNow, over time, you can terraform Mars. Terraform means make it like Earth, essentially. And if you warm Mars up, you will. There's a bunch of frozen CO2 that will evaporate, densify the atmosphere.
1:12:36Elon MuskAnd you'd actually want kind of global warming on Mars because Mars is about 50% further away from the sun than the Earth. So it gets about less than half the solar energy that Earth does.
1:12:48Joe RoganAnd it's believed at one point in time Mars had a much different environment. Right.
1:12:55Elon MuskIt appears highly likely that Mars had liquid oceans, albeit a long time ago. There's a lot of ice. So Mars is covered in ice, and now the ice is then covered in dust, mostly except at the poles.
1:13:11Elon MuskSo there's a lot of ice. In fact, I believe if Mars was warmed up, you'd have an ocean about a mile deep on 40% of the planet. So it's quite a lot of water.
1:13:23Joe RoganAnd do we think that it was like that at one point in time?
1:13:26Elon MuskThe evidence suggests that it is most likely that Mars had liquid water.
1:13:31Joe RoganWhat's the prevailing theory of its demise?
1:13:34Elon MuskWell, just over time, the solar system cooled, so Earth used to be much hotter. Like in the very early Earth was like molten rock, you know, so really almost nothing could survive.
1:13:45Elon MuskIn the beginning, we were just a walla lava. We're still mostly walla lava. We're like creme brulee, like There's a thin crust and it's mushy rock, very hot, mushy rock underneath.
1:14:00Elon MuskAnd technically that rock is in a semi solid state, but as soon as it gets to a low pressure, like pops out of the ocean, you have a volcano, obviously with lava.
1:14:09Elon MuskSo it's at surface ambient pressure. We were basically covered in liquid rock. Are you aware a thin crust on liquid rock.
1:14:20Joe RoganAre you aware of the origin myth of the Dogon tribe?
1:14:23Elon MuskNo.
1:14:24Joe RoganThere's a tribe in. I believe it's a tribe in. I forget what part of Africa, but they believe that they came from Mars and that there was a civilization that left Mars, you know, many, many eons ago.
1:14:39Joe RoganAnd it's a really weird. It's a really weird theory because they know some things about Mars.
1:14:48Elon MuskYeah, I'm pretty sure they didn't come from Mars.
1:14:50Joe RoganOh, yeah, I'm pretty sure too. But I mean, it's unbelievable. Do they have any spaceships?
1:14:54Elon MuskIf there are any spaceships, then I'm like, I don't believe it. Well, like you do have a spaceship, but I'll believe it.
1:14:58Joe RoganIf you parked a spaceship, how many thousands of years you've parked a metal spaceship. Like if you left a cybertruck in the desert.
1:15:06Elon MuskYeah.
1:15:06Joe RoganHow many thousands of years do you think it would be there for before it's gone?
1:15:11Elon MuskIf it got buried in dirt, you'd find it even like a million years from now.
1:15:14Joe RoganA million?
1:15:15Elon MuskYeah.
1:15:16Joe RoganWow.
1:15:18Elon MuskReally? Well, what you'd find is it's stainless
1:15:20Joe Rogansteel, so it'd have to be some sort of an alloy.
1:15:24Elon MuskIt's kind of like.
1:15:25Joe RoganBut iron wouldn't, right?
1:15:27Elon MuskYeah, but you'd have something similar to fossils, basically. Like the fossils, they essentially discolor the rock. So eventually whatever the fossil is, and sometimes the fossil's like in amber or something like that, where it still does survive, more or less intact.
1:15:45Elon MuskBut I mean, there's fossilized, like dinosaur
1:15:48Joe Roganfossils and tree fossils, essentially remineralized, right? Yeah, yeah.
1:15:54Elon MuskSo you'd see like a cybertruck shape in the rock, basically. Yeah.
1:16:00Joe RoganBut that's it. You wouldn't find the actual cybertruck. So if they did have a spaceship and it came here 30,000 years ago.
1:16:10Elon MuskOh, yeah, yeah. We'd definitely find it. Evidence of it. Well, I mean, if it was one spaceship, maybe not, but if it was a lot of them, sure.
1:16:19Joe RoganThat is the origin myth of the Dogon tribe, Right. Am I getting that right? Mars specifically, it's a hidden star. And the Sirius. Oh, somewhere else. Yeah.
1:16:28Elon MuskYou cannot be serious.
1:16:32Joe RoganSiriusxm it's, it's just very strange when people have this, this bizarre origin myth. Like, I wonder who's the first one to tell them they came from stars? And when we eventually do, I mean, how bizarre.
1:16:51Joe RoganImagine if you're successful, we eventually do colonize Mars. And you're correct, Earth winds up through human folly or natural disaster, getting wiped out. And there's only the colony on Mars.
1:17:07Joe RoganAnd that colony exists for 10, 20,000 years. And they have their origin myth that we all came from Earth. I mean, ultimately that's going. If this does happen, you do colonize Mars and Earth does get destroyed.
1:17:22Joe RoganAnd if a period of time takes place, like, look at the period, like at least the conventional timeline of the Great pyramid, which is 4,500 years ago.
1:17:31Elon Musk5,000 years, yeah.
1:17:33Joe RoganSo that's not that much time.
1:17:35Elon MuskIt's not that much time.
1:17:36Joe RoganNo.
1:17:36Elon MuskI mean, if it's nothing on the galactic time scale, right.
1:17:39Joe RoganSo if we're talking 20, 30,000 years from now on Mars and people talk about Times Square and what Earth used
1:17:47Elon Muskto be, like, I mean, it is, I think there's some debate. It's like, how do you say, what the. When does civilization start? And I'd say, like, probably from the first writing.
1:18:01Elon MuskAnd the first writing is only 5,500 years old. It's worth reading about the history of writing. But only 5,500 years. And that, and one has to credit basically the ancient Sumerians who aren't around anymore with the first writing.
1:18:18Joe RoganAre you aware though that there's hieroglyphs that depict a history of Egypt that goes back far longer, maybe even 30,000 plus years ago. But archaeologists dismiss it because they think that that's mythical.
1:18:31Joe RoganBut non conventional archaeologists who believe in what's called the Younger Dryas impact theory, and that somewhere around 11,800 years ago, civilization is essentially all but wiped out by comet impacts?
1:18:45Elon MuskOkay.
1:18:46Joe RoganAnd that, that is the reason why they keep finding these insanely old huge structures, megalithic structures that are carved out of stone. Like when you go back to like Gobekli tepe, which is 11,600 years ago, that's an insanely old structure that they didn't even know people were capable of building until they discovered it in the 1990s.
1:19:10Joe RoganSo the conventional timeline of people, when you go to 11,600 years ago was just hunter gatherers. But now that they have Gobekli tepe with its 3D carved things. And have you seen Graham Hancock's amazing series on Netflix called Ancient Apocalypse?
1:19:28Joe RoganI know you should check it out. It's amazing. But it's about that. It's all about that. There's a lot of physical evidence of an advanced civilization from far, far, far longer ago than we have conventionally dated, which is ancient Sumer, which is, we put it, about 6,000 years ago.
1:19:47Elon MuskYeah. Like the first. It's difficult date with precision, but. Or at least within a few hundred years, but roughly 5,500 years. Like, if you say, like, what is the oldest, like, stone tablet.
1:19:58Joe RoganYeah.
1:19:59Elon MuskBecause this is, you know, if you're like an archaeologist, if you were to discover something older than that, you'd be very famous. You know, it's like, it's like they really looked hard.
1:20:08Elon MuskYeah. And 5,500 years really is kind of the. If you select any kind of evidence that I've seen that is actually substantial writing is 5,500 years old.
1:20:23Joe RoganYeah. In terms of writing.
1:20:24Elon MuskYeah.
1:20:25Joe RoganWell, what they believe is that there's very little left of this ancient civilization other than things like the pyramids, other than things like the Sphinx. There's a geologist that really stuck his neck out.
1:20:37Joe RoganHis name is Dr. Robert Schock from Boston University. And what he said was, his theory is that there's deep water erosion all over. The temple of the Sphinx, where the Sphinx was carved out of, that is indicative of thousands of years of rainfall.
1:20:51Joe RoganAnd the last time they had rainfall in the Nile Valley was around 9,000 BC. So what he believes is because back then the whole Nile Valley was a lush rainforest and eventually receded into desert.
1:21:03Elon MuskOkay.
1:21:04Joe RoganYeah. So the entire. That whole area, like even the Sahara used to be rich rainforest, and it receded into what it is now. But if you go back then, he believes that's when that thing was constructed.
1:21:17Joe RoganAnd he said the physical. The geologists look at it and if he shows it to them in terms of like, just shows an image of the erosion, doesn't tell them where it is, they'll.
1:21:29Joe RoganAlmost all of them will say that's water erosion from thousands of years of rainfall.
1:21:33Elon MuskI think even if you say like, okay, even if, you know, even if you say, like, okay, civilization is like 9,000 years old, there's still nothing.
1:21:41Joe RoganNo. Yeah.
1:21:42Elon MuskSo, you know, we're still talking about like a very tiny fraction of Earth's existence. Like, the geological evidence suggests Earth is about four and a half billion years old.
1:21:53Elon MuskSo human civilization has been around for roughly one millionth of Earth's existence.
1:21:59Joe RoganYeah.
1:22:00Elon MuskThere's basically nothing. And even if it's 10,000 years, even
1:22:03Joe Roganif it's 30,000 years, it's still nothing. What they're saying, though, is that civilization is insanely fragile.
1:22:10Elon MuskThat's exactly.
1:22:10Joe RoganAnd much, much more fragile than we realize.
1:22:13Elon MuskYes, absolutely. I think we should view civilization as being fragile.
1:22:17Joe RoganYeah, but we don't. It's one of the weird things about people is that we. Unless the threat is in front of us, it's abstract. Unless it's like, really, Is the pizza here?
1:22:28Elon MuskOh, yeah.
1:22:30Joe RoganPizza's here.
1:22:31Elon MuskYeah.
1:22:32Joe RoganFrom civilization.
1:22:33Elon MuskNo, actually, one of my sons who is a Saxon, he has these profound observations, and he asked me, what was LA like 4000 years ago? I'm like, it wasn't around.
1:22:46Elon MuskAnd he said, what will it be like 4,000 years from now? Probably buried under rubble, I guess.
1:22:52Joe RoganProbably very similar to what it was like, 4,000 years ago.
1:22:54Elon MuskYeah, exactly. And he asked me, did they speak English 4,000 years ago? I'm like, nope. Will they speak English 4,000 years from now? Probably not.
1:23:06Joe RoganI should point out that I never eat pizza.
1:23:08Elon MuskReally?
1:23:09Joe RoganNo, never.
1:23:12Elon MuskWhy not?
1:23:12Joe RoganBecause it's not really good for you.
1:23:15Elon MuskWell, I don't think anyone's gonna accuse pizza of being, like, a. The healthiest thing in the world. This looks awesome.
1:23:21Joe RoganThat does look awesome. Plate, Jamie. Yeah, get in there, sir. Grab a piece.
1:23:28Elon MuskAll right. Sick. This is awesome.
1:23:32Joe RoganAnd what's the name of this pizza place? Pizza Leone. Pizza Leone. Shout out to Pizza Leone.
1:23:41Elon MuskOh, yeah, that really hits the spot.
1:23:43Joe RoganThat's legit. I mean, I'm no Dave Portnoy. I'm not like, our pizza analyst. He'll probably. I'm not gonna rate it. It's excellent.
1:23:57Elon MuskHis port really gets into pizza.
1:23:59Joe RoganOh, man.
1:24:05Joe RoganEver seen Portnoy's videos where he analyzes pizza? Oh, my God. It was like a whole method.
1:24:10Elon MuskOkay.
1:24:11Joe RoganNumber system.
1:24:12Elon MuskAll right.
1:24:13Joe RoganHe's into the crust and the flop and all these different things.
1:24:17Elon MuskWow.
1:24:17Joe RoganYeah. Everybody knows the rules. Yeah.
1:24:23Elon MuskWhat? What is it?
1:24:24Joe RoganEverybody knows the rules. One bite.
1:24:26Elon MuskYou only get one bite of a pizza. Yeah.
1:24:30Joe RoganHe bites into it, and then he just starts nodding his head. He's basically like a Somalia. Pizza.
1:24:35Elon MuskPizza. So, okay.
1:24:36Joe RoganYeah.
1:24:37Elon MuskAnd. And it's a Z. Is there, like, what's his favorite pizza joint?
1:24:41Joe RoganOh, the favorite one.
1:24:42Elon MuskThat's the.
1:24:42Joe RoganEveryone wants to know that it's always cheese. Yeah.
1:24:45Elon MuskWe spend so much time on pizza.
1:24:46Joe RoganAnd it's. New Haven. New Haven, Connecticut. Really?
1:24:48Elon MuskYeah.
1:24:50Joe RoganFor some reason, the Italians that moved to New Haven, Connecticut, really figured pizza out. They have insane pizza in New Haven, Connecticut.
1:24:58Elon MuskOkay.
1:24:59Joe RoganYeah. Like, really, like, legendary. I've had it. There was a comedy club I used to work out there called the Joker's Wild, and I had New Haven Pizza even back then.
1:25:09Joe RoganIt's just really good pizza.
1:25:12Elon MuskWell, okay.
1:25:13Joe RoganI don't know why, though. It seems like something that could be replicated.
1:25:21Elon MuskYeah, exactly.
1:25:22Joe RoganYeah. It's not like rocket ship.
1:25:24Elon MuskYeah.
1:25:27Joe RoganThe thing is, the people that are making pizza are not like the people that are making rocket ships. If they were, they would replicate it.
1:25:37Elon MuskYeah.
1:25:38Joe RoganThey would go, what are these guys doing? Let's back engineer. It sure can't be that hard, you know, all these secret sauces and. Well, what's in there?
1:25:49Elon MuskYeah, well, I was hungry.
1:25:57Joe RoganThe combination of pineapple and anchovy, surprisingly good, right?
1:26:02Elon MuskYeah.
1:26:03Joe RoganWhen is the first pineapple anchovy pizza they ever made there? I don't see it on their menu very often.
1:26:11Elon MuskI used to order it.
1:26:13Joe RoganWhen I would order for delivery, they'd go, are you sure? I'm like, don't you think I know what I'm doing?
1:26:19Elon MuskI'm ordering it. Not with extra arsenic,
1:26:29Joe RoganAs you know. Why I don't eat this stuff, though. I cannot stop. That's the problem.
1:26:36Elon MuskThis pizza is too delicious.
1:26:37Joe RoganOh, so good. High calorie, high carbohydrate foods. Once they start going down the hatch, they don't want to stop.
1:26:44Elon MuskCoughs are the devil.
1:26:46Joe RoganOh, they are the devil. Remember they used to be the base of the food chain.
1:26:52Elon MuskYeah.
1:26:52Joe RoganThe whole pyramid. The whole pyramid. The bottom of the food pyramid was coughed.
1:26:56Elon MuskWhat would the Egyptians say?
1:27:00Joe RoganYou know, it's like we're out of our mind.
1:27:05Elon MuskYeah, exactly. This stuff is just.
1:27:07Joe RoganThat's the bizarre thing.
1:27:08Elon MuskIt's like fourth of July in your
1:27:09Joe Roganmouth when how many human beings eat just processed food? Like the majority of their diet is processed food. Like, the entire center of the supermarket is. You really probably shouldn't eat.
1:27:20Joe RoganExcept every now and then.
1:27:26Joe RoganGood, Jamie. I bet you want one. I don't. You seem offended. No. It's two of my. Not, like, favorite. I don't like either of those things, honestly. Have you tried it?
1:27:37Joe RoganIt's not my. Well, Billy, you should try it.
1:27:41Elon MuskI understand. I feel like I should.
1:27:42Joe RoganThis show's all about trying it. We shot an arrow at a car. I'm just not gonna like it. And I don't want to offend pizza.
1:27:47Elon MuskLeo and I like that place.
1:27:50Joe RoganThat would be offended. All right.
1:27:54Elon MuskIt's hard to miss with pizza.
1:27:55Joe RoganFrankly, unlike the creeps who used to run Twitter, I don't care if someone has a different opinion than Me, I just don't like fish, to be that honest with you.
1:28:03Joe RoganLike I've tried it many times and I still haven't liked it yet. That's gonna be. Well, I'm gonna be won over. You like any fish? I can do crab meat.
1:28:13Elon MuskYeah, but I don't like the whole.
1:28:14Joe RoganDo you like sushi?
1:28:15Elon MuskNo. I'm gonna have Philip's try some of
1:28:19Joe RoganPhillips on Thursday though. You're going to try it but you don't like fish? I'm like D.C. i'm afraid of that whole thing ever.
1:28:26Elon MuskI talked to Philip about it in detail.
1:28:29Joe RoganOkay.
1:28:30Elon MuskI don't eat fish that often.
1:28:32Joe RoganI like it. Yeah, it's particularly good when you catch it yourself, eat it fresh.
1:28:39Elon MuskFresh fish really is way better.
1:28:41Joe RoganWay better.
1:28:41Elon MuskWay better.
1:28:42Joe RoganYeah. Fish goes bad quick, unlike meat.
1:28:45Elon MuskYeah, like meat.
1:28:48Joe RoganYou can like let it sit around for a while, kind of marinate before you cook.
1:28:51Elon MuskYou don't marinate fish? I think.
1:28:53Joe RoganWell, they do. They actually dry aged fish.
1:28:56Elon MuskOkay.
1:28:57Joe RoganYeah, a lot of places dry aged fish. Yeah. I didn't know that. I didn't. I wasn't aware of that. But that's actually a common practice to dry age fish for certain sushi dishes, like really gourmet places.
1:29:09Joe RoganHave you ever been to sushi by scratch?
1:29:11Elon MuskIs that in town?
1:29:12Joe RoganYeah, it's just outside of town. He used to run sushi bar and then he sold. It's my friend Philip Franklin Lee's a Michelin star chef. He used to run sushi bar in town.
1:29:22Joe RoganHe sold that and then he opened up sushi by scratch. But because of the contractual obligations, he has to be like outside of the Austin proper. So he's about 30 miles away.
1:29:32Joe RoganIt's fucking fantastic. If you like sushi, it's like the best sushi you'll ever eat.
1:29:37Elon MuskOkay.
1:29:37Joe RoganI mean, it's really insane. I say that with you eat it and you're like, Jesus Christ. The best sushi of all time.
1:29:44Elon MuskSushi by scratch.
1:29:46Joe RoganMm. They have ones in Miami where they have it now. Chicago, they got a bunch of them.
1:29:54Elon MuskIt's not allowed in Austin?
1:29:56Joe RoganNo, it's not in Austin proper. I think once his contract is up, you know, he had a non compete in Austin for like three years or something.
1:30:04Elon MuskI don't know how long it was. Okay.
1:30:05Joe RoganBut maybe eventually he'll open up one in Austin, but it's about 30 minutes outside of it. What city is it again? Cedar.
1:30:12Elon MuskCedar Creek.
1:30:13Joe RoganIt's out at Lost Pines area. Yeah, it's 30 minutes. That's a big Deal.
1:30:19Elon MuskSushi by scratch. Got it.
1:30:20Joe RoganYeah, it's a shit. Let me know if you want to go look it up.
1:30:22Elon MuskYeah, sure.
1:30:23Joe RoganYeah, it's awesome. It's really worth it, like, if you like sushi.
1:30:26Elon MuskIt's a mind blower.
1:30:27Joe RoganIt's a mind blower. And it's omakase. So, like, you sit down, they bring you food. That's it.
1:30:34Elon MuskThat looks good.
1:30:34Joe RoganIt's pretty fucking cool.
1:30:35Elon MuskYou've been to Matsuhisa in la?
1:30:37Joe RoganYes.
1:30:38Elon MuskThe Omakase Brothers is great.
1:30:39Joe RoganYes. That place is outstanding. Yeah.
1:30:42Elon MuskYeah.
1:30:42Joe RoganI love good sushi. And it's one of the things that's amazing is how many good restaurants there are in Austin. I mean, for a city that's relatively small, I mean, the restaurant per capita is excellent.
1:30:54Joe RoganAmazing.
1:30:54Elon MuskYeah.
1:30:55Joe RoganAnd they're so good. There's, like, so many, like, artisan restaurants. We just found a new one that Brian Simpson told us about. It's called Bacalar.
1:31:02Elon MuskOkay.
1:31:02Joe RoganIt's this Mexican restaurant that's a town. Fantastic. Really good. Yeah, they just opened up. I think they've only been open for, like, six weeks, so shout out to them.
1:31:11Joe RoganJust ate there the other night.
1:31:12Elon MuskOkay.
1:31:13Joe RoganIt's just. There's so many good places here.
1:31:14Elon MuskYeah.
1:31:15Joe RoganLike, you can't have a bad restaurant in this town. You will go under quickly.
1:31:19Elon MuskThe competition is strong.
1:31:20Joe RoganThere's so much competition, and it's like. And there's so much variety.
1:31:24Elon MuskYeah.
1:31:24Joe RoganAll kinds.
1:31:24Elon MuskA lot of good restaurants in town. Yeah.
1:31:27Joe RoganIt's amazing. You know, I remember we were hanging out at your place, like, way back in the day when I first moved here, and you said something very prophetic when all this was happening, like, Austin's about to go supernova.
1:31:37Joe RoganYeah, kind of did.
1:31:39Elon MuskYeah. It's a boomtown.
1:31:41Joe RoganYeah, it really is.
1:31:42Elon MuskYeah.
1:31:43Joe RoganLegitimately.
1:31:44Elon MuskYep.
1:31:44Joe RoganAnd with the gigafactory, I mean, how many jobs have you brought into Austin from that factory alone?
1:31:51Elon MuskWell, we're about 10,000 direct. Ish. And then I think 50,000 indirect, so it's a lot.
1:31:58Joe RoganThat's pretty awesome.
1:31:59Elon MuskYeah. I mean, there's. There's only too many people in the greater Austin area.
1:32:03Joe RoganI know. That's crazy.
1:32:07Elon MuskIn fact, the kind of limiting factor for growth is just finding enough people. Yeah.
1:32:16Joe RoganThis is terrible for. Sound
1:32:21Elon Musklike the subtitle. Chewing sounds.
1:32:23Joe RoganThis is my last piece.
1:32:25Elon MuskSubtitle chewing sounds.
1:32:27Joe RoganPeople are gonna have to deal with it. This is my last piece. Are you taking it away? You son of a.
1:32:31Elon MuskYou son of a. I've suddenly eaten my full.
1:32:34Joe RoganYeah.
1:32:35Elon MuskTake it away.
1:32:35Joe RoganI'll keep going. I'll eat the whole. That's the problem, eating carbs.
1:32:39Elon MuskYeah. Carbs are awesome. Yeah, I know. It's like. I feel good, though. I mean, this is the dopamine explosion from carbs.
1:32:48Joe RoganI'm happy I did it. Yeah.
1:32:50Elon MuskI mean, once in a while. It's fine.
1:32:52Joe RoganOnce in a while. For me, it's once in a great while, but.
1:32:56Elon MuskWell, there's like, Tim Ferriss has, like that, you know, you have one. Whatever. One meal a week or something.
1:33:01Joe RoganYeah, that's good.
1:33:04Elon MuskYeah.
1:33:05Joe RoganOne meal a week. I'll go with sweets. I'll have a ice cream sundae or some.
1:33:10Elon MuskIce cream sundaes are great.
1:33:12Joe RoganOh, they're amazing. Amazing. Yeah. I don't even think most people know what an ice cream sundae tastes like unless they smoke marijuana. And then you're like, oh, yeah, this is a different thing.
1:33:24Joe RoganIt's an amazing invention.
1:33:25Elon MuskYeah.
1:33:25Joe RoganWhoever figured out the hot fudge and then the whipped cream on top of it. What a combo.
1:33:29Elon MuskIncredible.
1:33:30Joe RoganYeah, yeah, Maybe. Oh, yeah, maybe. Great idea. I don't know if that's Dairy Queen for sure. Dairy Queen. Well, I mean, that's what's open right now. What's legit.
1:33:41Elon MuskIt's 11:30.
1:33:42Joe RoganI know.
1:33:43Elon MuskWhat's that? There's like that pizza restaurant that. The pizza chain that's. They got the best ice cream sundae that I've ever seen.
1:33:48Joe RoganIt's giant one out here.
1:33:51Elon MuskGod. I'm trying to remember the name of the. It's. It's. It is a. It is a chain, but it's not like a big chain.
1:33:56Joe RoganPeople that are upset right now because they're listening, like on the treadmill and they're hearing us chewing like these motherfuckers
1:34:01Elon Muskare going to get pizza and ice
1:34:04Joe Rogancream sundaes while people try to lose weight.
1:34:08Elon MuskYeah.
1:34:08Joe RoganSweating out.
1:34:10Elon MuskOh, Bucket of Beppos.
1:34:12Joe RoganOh, yeah.
1:34:14Elon MuskThey've got a gigantic ice cream sundae.
1:34:17Joe RoganEverything they have is gigantic.
1:34:18Elon MuskIt's amazing.
1:34:19Joe RoganYeah. I worked there for a long time.
1:34:21Elon MuskIt's actually really good. It's amazing.
1:34:23Joe RoganOh, bro, they have that rigatoni. The rigatoni with the meat sauce and oh, my God Brigade is great. It's fantastic.
1:34:31Elon MuskYeah.
1:34:31Joe RoganAnd it's very reasonably priced for the amount of food you get.
1:34:34Elon MuskYeah. There's one in Palo Alto.
1:34:36Joe RoganCrazy amount of food.
1:34:36Elon MuskYeah. It's really good.
1:34:38Joe RoganYeah.
1:34:39Elon MuskI like all the photographs on the wall.
1:34:41Joe RoganThere's one of those down the street from our old studio in la Woodland Hills, Remember? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:34:47Elon MuskIt's legit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I used to take my kids to the one at the Grove in LA.
1:34:56Joe RoganWhat, if anything, is out near SpaceX? Like what do you guys have out
1:34:59Elon Muskthere in LA or here? Out here we've got the Starlink terminal factory. So we, for the Starlink V4 terminals, we build them here. We build the, what's called the, well, the version 3 terminals and the version 3 minis.
1:35:19Elon MuskThere's like, there's like we do part of the production or actually I should say we've done all of the production of the terminals thus far in LA, and we'll continue to do production in LA, but we're also just completed a second factory in Bastrop, just about 20 minutes from here.
1:35:37Joe RoganAnd then SpaceX is where you make the launches. What part of Texas is that?
1:35:44Elon MuskWell, starship stuff is in South Texas, near the border, just right on the Rio Grande.
1:35:50Joe RoganAnd how did you pick that location?
1:35:54Elon MuskI was just literally looking at satellite images and for going to orbit, you kind of need to, you want to launch eastward so that you can take advantage of Earth rotation to get to orbit.
1:36:08Elon MuskSo it's a little counterintuitive that reaching orbital velocity, getting to orbit is about your speed parallel to the Earth's surface. It's like, how fast are you zooming around Earth?
1:36:22Elon MuskIt's not a. Like the gravity at the altitude of the space station is almost the same as it is on the ground. The reason the space station is actually up there, it's kind of the wrong terminology.
1:36:33Elon MuskIt's actually moving around the earth at 17,000 miles an hour. So the space station goes around the Earth at roughly every 90 minutes. So and because Earth is turning and the speed at which it is turning, or the way you experience velocity is it's moving at roughly a thousand miles an hour at the equator.
1:36:59Elon MuskSo the closer you are to the equator, the more you can take advantage of Earth rotation to reach orbital velocity. So you want to enter an entrance rotating eastward.
1:37:10Elon MuskYou want to be on the east coast to make it easier to get to orbital velocity. So you need a section of coast that's on the east, fairly southward, that is not occupied.
1:37:24Elon MuskSo almost really all of Florida except for Cape Canaveral is wall to wall houses on the beach. There's almost no section of Florida that, that every section of Florida has houses except for Cape Canaveral, which is a government base.
1:37:42Elon MuskSo one of the few spots that wasn't occupied was the area just adjacent to the border with Mexico. And it just wasn't super well suited to holiday homes. And there was at one point a development that was going to take place, but then a hurricane came and destroyed the entire place and in fact rearranged the land, so some of the plots were underwater.
1:38:12Elon MuskSo it's kind of a tough spot to build a home. And that's why it was unoccupied. So we needed a piece of. It needed to be US Territory, because if we go outside the US there are export restrictions because rocket technology is an advanced weapons technology, so we can't just like, you know, arbitrarily go to another country.
1:38:36Elon MuskSo it needs to be US land, east coast and fairly southward.
1:38:43Joe RoganThat's fascinating. That rockets.
1:38:45Elon MuskIt's one of the few spots that
1:38:46Joe Roganexist like that that rockets fall into the category of weapons technology.
1:38:50Elon MuskYeah. Intercontinental ballistic missiles.
1:38:53Joe RoganI mean, it makes sense.
1:38:55Elon MuskYeah. We could drop a rocket anywhere, Nobody could stop us.
1:38:59Joe RoganWow. That is crazy about the space station too.
1:39:03Elon MuskYeah.
1:39:04Joe RoganIt's going 17,000 miles an hour.
1:39:07Elon MuskYes. I mean, you've seen the videos of the rocket landing, right?
1:39:12Joe RoganYes. It's amazing.
1:39:13Elon MuskVery precise.
1:39:14Joe RoganIt's pretty fucking amazing.
1:39:15Elon MuskWe could make land basically anywhere.
1:39:17Joe RoganNo.
1:39:19Elon MuskOr not land. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't have to turn on the thrusters to slow down.
1:39:26Joe RoganWhat is it like to try to juggle these different things in your mind on a daily basis? Like, what is it like to try to juggle X, Tesla, SpaceX, all these different things at the same time?
1:39:43Elon MuskIt's a lot for a human brain to handle.
1:39:46Joe RoganYeah, I would imagine.
1:39:48Elon MuskYeah. My. It strains my meat computer.
1:39:54Joe RoganI mean, do you need something like that, though? Does your meat computer need more problem solving than the average one? I mean, is this something like, if you only had one thing to work on, you think you would get bored or you would get distracted or you would not be satisfied?
1:40:15Joe RoganLike, do you need these things to be so complex and have so many of them simultaneously juggling? Because you didn't pick three easy ones. You pick three of the fucking hardest things you could ever get into.
1:40:28Joe RoganYou already detailed how difficult manufacturing is. Rockets. Duh. It's crazy. It's one of the craziest things, like rocket science. Completely innovative rockets that land like, they. That never happened before.
1:40:42Joe RoganSo you're doing that and then you said, you know what? We're going to save humanity. Let me go spend 44 billion on Twitter.
1:40:49Elon MuskMan, that was expensive.
1:40:51Joe RoganWhat's it worth? What do you think it was actually worth?
1:40:58Elon MuskEverything.
1:40:59Joe RoganYeah. Not for the market, right? I mean, like for humans. Yes, I agree with you. I mean, I really Genuinely do think this, and I've said this many times publicly, I think you did humanity an immense service and that if that didn't happen, the narrative of this country would have gone further and further down that road to the point where people would have been scared to speak their mind and they would have been scared.
1:41:23Joe RoganAnd it changes the way people communicate at their jobs, which changes the way. It just changes the way people, when they leave universities and they go to get jobs, the way they're allowed to communicate.
1:41:39Joe RoganAnd people don't like to be on the outside, they don't like to be ostracized, they don't like to be kicked out of communities. So people would adhere and they would change.
1:41:48Elon MuskAbsolutely. And people, I guess, are afraid of, like being. Yeah, ostracized is like. Fear of being ostracized, I think is probably the biggest issue. And then just being totally shut down, you know, where you have no outlet and you can just basically disappear except for in person meetings.
1:42:09Elon MuskSo,
1:42:14Elon MuskYeah, it was important to steer. Have at least one social media outlet that wasn't canceling people.
1:42:27Joe RoganWhat I really enjoy is reading the tweets. I guess you still have to call
1:42:31Elon Muskthem tweets or whatever. I don't have a good word for
1:42:35Joe Roganit, but yeah, you can't say the X's reading the.
1:42:38Elon MuskAll my exes live in Texas reading the words.
1:42:42Joe RoganI should say I enjoy reading the words of people who proclaimed that they were leaving and going over to Threads.
1:42:49Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.
1:42:51Joe RoganThat's an interesting thing about momentum. Very difficult to start a whole new social media platform. Even one that initially got like, what, what did Threads get? Like some crazy number of initial people signing up for it, but it just dropped off within like a couple of weeks now.
1:43:10Joe RoganIt's a fucking ghost town.
1:43:11Elon MuskYeah, it's like wild. Eerily quiet.
1:43:14Joe RoganIt's wild.
1:43:15Elon MuskI mean, Zuck himself doesn't post, so that's crazy. Gotta. You gotta use your own product.
1:43:21Joe RoganIt's interesting though, because they're sneaking them in now in Instagram. They sneak.
1:43:25Elon MuskThey sneak a little thread in there.
1:43:26Joe RoganBecause every now and then I'll see something, oh, that's interest. And I click on it. Oh, you motherfucker. And it'll pull up threads for me like, you got me, because they're integrated.
1:43:36Elon MuskBut I don't use Instagram.
1:43:38Joe RoganIt's fascinating that I'm pretty sure you don't. Why would you? If I bought X or Twitter, whatever, I wouldn't use anything else either.
1:43:45Elon MuskYeah, but I didn't use Instagram for a while. I mean, there was a time when I was posting on Instagram, but I found myself doing selfies and I'm like, what the hell is wrong with me?
1:44:01Elon MuskWhy am I posing for selfies to get likes. This is crazy. And like, so then I was like, you know, if you, if you pose for selfies on Twitter, that people would jump all over you, you know?
1:44:15Joe RoganYeah.
1:44:16Elon MuskThey're like, what's up? What's wrong with you?
1:44:20Joe RoganThat's so true. Yeah, People are like way more lenient on Instagram for some strange reason.
1:44:25Elon MuskYeah, it's. It's like pretty pictures, basically.
1:44:28Joe RoganYeah, Pretty pictures and a lot of bullshit. There's a lot of weirdness that comes with Instagram.
1:44:34Elon MuskLike filters.
1:44:36Joe RoganLike, I've got grown men using filters on their pictures. It's very strange.
1:44:42Elon MuskYou know, I am concerned that like, like, say Instagram actually leads to more unhappiness, not less in the sense that it just looks like everyone's having a great time and is way better looking than they really are.
1:44:59Elon MuskAnd so you're like, man, everyone's good looking and having a great time. And then you sort of compare yourself to that and it's like, damn, I'm not as good looking and I seem to be sad a lot.
1:45:11Elon MuskAnd then you're like, man, I think it could make you kind of depressed.
1:45:16Joe RoganYeah, well, and also you're a grown man and you experience this. You're also very intelligent. You experience this. Imagine being a young kid. Jonathan Haidt documented that in the Coddling of the American Mind.
1:45:27Joe RoganThere's a direct correlation between the invention of social media and its ubiquitous use and self harm amongst kids, particularly girls. It's really bad for girls and they like around 2007, ish.
1:45:41Joe RoganThere's this big uptick on suicide, self harm depression.
1:45:48Elon MuskYeah. People can't just like make themselves be better looking. There's like a limit. So.
1:45:54Joe RoganRight. Yeah. And then surgery. Yeah, it was a big uptick in people getting their jaws reshaped and shit.
1:46:03Elon MuskI mean, yeah, it's bad. So I don't know. I think, Yeah, I think like they have to say, like, is Instagram a net happiness generator or not? I'm not sure it is.
1:46:19Joe RoganSpeaking of distorted images, have you seen the Court artist's drawing of Sam Bankman fried?
1:46:24Elon MuskI mean, it's almost like they lost money or something.
1:46:26Joe RoganWhat the fuck happened?
1:46:27Elon MuskIt looks like it melted.
1:46:29Joe RoganHave you seen it? He looks like a supermodel.
1:46:32Elon MuskOh, what SVF does? Yes. The guy who drew him, one of them I saw.
1:46:39Joe RoganMaybe there's More than one artist?
1:46:40Elon MuskMaybe there's more than one artist because some of those ones I saw, one of them were unflattering.
1:46:44Joe RoganHe looked like an anime superhero.
1:46:46Elon MuskYou're joking.
1:46:47Joe RoganNo, no. Like, perfect chiseled jawline. Ridiculous. He looked like he lost 30 pounds, started working out. Look at this, look at that.
1:46:55Elon MuskAre you kidding?
1:46:56Joe RoganWhat the fuck, man? Look at that guy on the left. That guy looks like Superman, doesn't he? Look how hot that guy is. I almost feel like it's not.
1:47:04Elon MuskIt's like Clark Kent or something. It might be.
1:47:07Joe RoganI feel like someone's fucking with us. There's a few other pictures. When I Googled like, you know, there's
1:47:11Elon Musksome rough pictures though.
1:47:12Joe RoganIt seems like someone's fucking with us. Because that guy's handsome as fuck. Because there's this one that's not the same. No, that one's terrible. That's Satan's drawing. But, but that one right there, if that is real, it's.
1:47:24Joe RoganIt like, come on, that's bullshit because look at what they did with the girl. Oh, wow. Look at that picture there. Even that picture.
1:47:33Elon MuskCarol looks like she's melting.
1:47:35Joe RoganYeah, I don't know.
1:47:37Elon MuskI don't. I have to.
1:47:37Joe RoganI mean, but she's probably massively depressed. I mean, I bet, like, that's also like, it's artists interpretation of the energy she's giving off in court. I mean, she has to rat on her boyfriend and she's already pleaded guilty and you know, for a lesser sentence, she's going to rat him out.
1:47:54Elon MuskWell, I mean, I don't know who SBF's PR team is, but they, they're doing an incredible job.
1:48:02Joe RoganFor real?
1:48:03Elon MuskWell, I mean, I mean, the dude ripped tons of people off and stole their money, and yet he's getting basically, you know, back rubbed from the press.
1:48:12Joe RoganWell, don't you think that's because the amount of money that he donated.
1:48:16Elon MuskYeah, I don't know. I don't know what the deal is.
1:48:17Joe RoganIt might have something to do with that. I'm not that cynical. I generally don't think people are influenced by money.
1:48:25Elon MuskWell, I don't know what he's doing,
1:48:26Joe Roganbut something's going on.
1:48:28Elon MuskThe number of articles that I've seen where it's like, you know, where it's basically, you know, a misunderstood philanthropist is ridiculous.
1:48:39Joe RoganWell, your bullshit meter went off when he was offering money to buy in with you with Twitter, correct? Well, a large amount, yeah.
1:48:51Elon MuskAnd I mean, a lot of people, you know, fell for his bullshit. But I mean, first of All I hadn't really heard of the guy. I'm like, who is this guy and what did he do?
1:49:06Elon MuskAnd he's in the Bahamas. That's pretty sus to begin with.
1:49:09Joe RoganHe's very.
1:49:10Elon MuskSusan, like, who's. Who's like, if you're on a tropical island, like, you know, finance organizations in tropical islands are generally have bad track record.
1:49:19Joe RoganAnd he's involved in crypto and crypto,
1:49:21Elon Muskwhich is like there's a lot of the scam probability in crypto is high.
1:49:25Joe RoganIt's high. So yeah, I'm not saying it's all scams, but that I would leave that distinction for. For V. One of those fucking NFTs that's like 80% scam. Except for Beeple.
1:49:39Joe RoganBeeple's legit. I mean like digital art.
1:49:42Elon MuskYeah. People stuff is great, but I mean NFTs. The funny thing is that the NFT is not even on the blockchain. It's just a URL to the. To the jpeg.
1:49:52Elon MuskSo it's not even like. It's like you should at least encode the JPEG in the blockchain because like if the URL. If the company housing the image goes out of business, you don't have the image anymore.
1:50:04Joe RoganI never understood it. I tried so hard. I tried so hard. I know I have a friend who made millions does selling an artist. I'm like, okay, save that money.
1:50:15Joe RoganBecause eventually people are going to figure this out.
1:50:18Elon MuskI mean, with art there is a fair bit of money laundering and tax avoidance. That is so some of these things that seem inexplicable.
1:50:27Joe RoganLike Hunter Biden. You talk about Hiram Biden's paintings.
1:50:32Elon MuskDid he actually sell paintings for large sums of money?
1:50:34Joe RoganImmense sums of money.
1:50:35Elon MuskOkay. It's hundreds of thousands probably. That seems unlikely to be a legit transaction.
1:50:41Joe RoganUnlikely, right?
1:50:42Elon MuskUnlikely, yeah.
1:50:44Joe RoganThe work's not bad though, I gotta say, for that kind of bullshit art, it's not that bad.
1:50:49Elon MuskYeah, I mean, the thing is that it's hard to price art because in the eye of the beholder. So how can you say whether something
1:50:57Joe Roganlike this is this stuff? How much that go for? 225k a steal. It's not that bad. That's not that bad. I mean, I would buy that. I wouldn't buy for 225, but I'll buy it for 5.
1:51:12Joe RoganYeah, it's not bad. Like, look, a lot of crackheads are good artists. Like, you know, you get crazy on drugs and splatter some shit around and you got a unique vision that's not bad.
1:51:22Elon MuskIt's not bad.
1:51:23Joe RoganThat's not. That is not bad at all. How much does that one go for? So he's a. He's probably legit. Meanwhile, we're going to find out he had a ghost artist.
1:51:32Elon MuskI mean, I suspect he. I mean, he's. He's not untalented.
1:51:37Joe RoganRight.
1:51:38Elon MuskSo, I mean, I actually don't have any issues with his lifestyle or anything.
1:51:43Joe RoganThere's his stuff. That stuff's not bad. Like whatever that dog wolf thing is on the wall. That's pretty dope. Yeah, I like that. What does it say underneath it?
1:51:54Joe RoganCan you read it?
1:51:57Elon MuskI can't read it
1:52:00Joe Roganeither way.
1:52:01Elon MuskNot bad. It's not bad. It's not bad.
1:52:03Joe RoganHave you ever heard the theory that the entire modern art movement, like Jackson Pollock and the like, was a CIA psyop?
1:52:16Elon MuskI mean, I have heard that, but I have not heard any evidence for it.
1:52:19Joe RoganI read the article a couple years ago.
1:52:21Elon MuskOkay. At least Modern Art Society.
1:52:24Joe RoganYeah.
1:52:25Elon MuskEvery day I wake up.
1:52:27Joe RoganBut it was fascinating. Yeah, every day. There's always something.
1:52:31Elon MuskCat with a tinfoil hat. No.
1:52:34Joe RoganWhen was this?
1:52:36Elon MuskBeginning of 2020. Really?
1:52:39Joe RoganA CIA psyop. But I mean, if you can get someone to spend that kind of money on that kind of shit, like the Jackson Pollock stuff. So here it is.
1:52:52Joe RoganPreeminent culture war, Cold War. What is it? Okay. The relationship between modern art and American diplomacy began during World War II. Museum MOMA Battle for Hearts and minds.
1:53:06Elon MuskHmm.
1:53:08Joe RoganIt's an interesting article. So I read the article a couple years ago. I can't remember what their argument was, but it's one of those things. Starts there like they spent money to buy paintings directly from artists.
1:53:20Joe Rogan40s the United. Okay. Even though modern art and American diplomacy were of a piece, Soviet propaganda asserted that the United States was culturally barren capitalist wasteland. To make the case for American cultural dynamism, the State Department in 1946, spent $49,000 to purchase 79 paintings directly from American modern artists and mounted them in a traveling exhibition called Advancing American Art.
1:53:49Joe RoganThat exhibition, which made stops in Europe and Latin America, included work from artists like Georgia o' Keeffe and Jake. Georgia o' Keeffe is the lady who makes vaginas, Right?
1:54:00Joe RoganIsn't that her work? I don't know.
1:54:01Elon MuskI think. I think that is some of what she does. Yeah.
1:54:04Joe RoganI think she makes, like, vagina, like, flowers and stuff.
1:54:11Elon MuskI mean, I think some of it's pretty good, but.
1:54:14Joe RoganWell, the Jackson Pollock one, I was like, how did. Come on. What Happened. That one is just wild because I. I really think I could do that. Some of it should have.
1:54:23Joe RoganLike Jackson Pollock. The CIA teamed up to win the Cold War. Yeah. Okay. I think that's the article I read because that's 2017. I don't remember.
1:54:34Elon MuskWell, I think, you know, art is very much in the eye of the beholder. It's like, what does it make you? How does it make you think and feel?
1:54:41Elon MuskAnd if it makes you think and feel in a way that you like, then it's good.
1:54:45Joe RoganYes, absolutely.
1:54:46Elon MuskYeah.
1:54:47Joe RoganBut it's also a way to launder money.
1:54:50Elon MuskYes. A number of these like very high priced art things are tax evasion and money laundering.
1:54:58Joe RoganHave you ever seen the documentary on the lost Leonardo? No, that's crazy. That's crazy. MBS purchased this and he purchased it for some insane amount of money. It turns out it probably isn't Leonardo da Vinci's.
1:55:13Joe RoganNot only that, but the vast majority of the painting was made by a modern age woman who recreated everything like so she. In restoring air quotes. Restoring. She essentially repainted the image in the style of da Vinci.
1:55:32Elon MuskOkay.
1:55:33Joe RoganAnd it's very sketchy because if you look at the original painting, it was all fucked up and missing paint and there was many layers someone had painted over it.
1:55:41Joe RoganIt's really an incredible documentary because it just shows how much fuckery is involved in these high dollar transactions. And I think it went. I think it was the most expensive painting that was ever sold.
1:55:54Joe RoganI think it went for something in the neighborhood of $400 million. $450 million. Yeah. The lost Leonardo A new film solved the mystery of the world's most expensive painting.
1:56:05Joe RoganIs the $450 million Salvatore Mundy a fake? This film featuring teal, tearful sycophants, sneering experts, dodgy dealers in a secretive super yacht may finally settle the great da Vinci controversy.
1:56:20Joe RoganApparently there's multiple layers and different styles of painting involved in it. And when they do some sort of a comprehensive examination whether it's like, you know, I don't know what kind of imagery they're using, but they're doing something when they could say like this has been painted many times and fucked with.
1:56:38Joe RoganYeah, it might have originally been one of Leonardo students. Might not have been Leonardo. Like there's not.
1:56:45Elon MuskOkay. A real state here that time.
1:56:47Joe RoganYeah.
1:56:48Elon MuskOkay.
1:56:48Joe RoganBut whether it was Sotheby's that sold it. Yeah. So they were kind of aware that there were some shenanigans with this piece, but they also were aware that this was this was gonna.
1:57:00Joe RoganCha Ching. This is three lemons. This was. They were gonna hit the jackpot with this bad boy.
1:57:05Elon MuskYeah.
1:57:05Joe RoganAnd so they went through with it and. Yeah. Christie's. That's it. The other one. Christie's was aware of it. It's a fascinating documentary. I don't know what's right. I don't know what's wrong.
1:57:18Joe RoganIt might be real, but at the very least, it's been retouched mostly by this woman. Isn't it, like, 90% of the painting. There's some very high percentage of the painting that was actually made by this woman.
1:57:33Joe RoganAnd they show her. She worked on it forever, for years and years. Worked, like, painstakingly to retouch this piece of art. Which is very odd.
1:57:46Elon MuskYeah.
1:57:48Joe RoganThat they do that. Because, like, wouldn't you just want it all fucked up and old?
1:57:52Elon MuskSure.
1:57:52Joe RoganI mean, that's the real piece of art.
1:57:54Elon MuskYeah.
1:57:55Joe RoganThe real piece of art is not like some woman in 2001 painting over it. That's just crazy.
1:58:03Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I enjoy art for the aesthetics, but not for the name value.
1:58:11Joe RoganYeah. I feel the same way. I enjoy art just because I just what it makes you. How it makes you feel.
1:58:18Elon MuskYes.
1:58:18Joe RoganIt's, you know, it's a cool thing. I mean, obviously, my studio is filled with it. I love art. It's everywhere out there. I'm just. I love it. Have you seen.
1:58:29Joe RoganOh, the woman? Have you seen the one. The piece that she made of you? This Melania Blackman. Have you seen that drawing that she did?
1:58:36Elon MuskIs that the weird one?
1:58:37Joe RoganShe. It's everything. It's. It's. She. It's enormous.
1:58:40Elon MuskOkay.
1:58:41Joe RoganShe draws it, and you're essentially made up of all these different characters and different things. So here you find her work with this. She did one of me, and she did one of Anthony Bourdain that I bought.
1:58:53Joe RoganThat's out there as well. She's super talented, this woman. So this is her. She's really hot, too.
1:59:01Elon MuskOkay.
1:59:02Joe RoganSo you can find her standing next to it.
1:59:06Elon MuskThere it is.
1:59:11Joe RoganInstagram bandit. Oh, that was. Right. There was something that happened where Instagram did something. What happened? So Instagram has not only banned me from promoting this artwork, but also Shadow banned me altogether after I posted my latest piece.
1:59:29Joe RoganThis is after probably you said that you wanted to fight Zucker.
1:59:32Elon MuskWell, actually, I was just. Zucker fight is funny because he was posting all these fight videos. And then someone on Twitter at the time said, hey, you should fight Zuck.
1:59:46Elon MuskAnd I said, well, I'm willing to Fight if he is. And then Zuck posted, I think, on Instagram or something. Name the place or something. Something to that effect.
1:59:59Elon MuskAnd I was like, okay, how about the Vegas Octagon?
2:00:07Elon MuskAnd then Italy actually was willing to let us use the Colosseum. So I was like, well, can't turn that down, you know, and then I was like, well, if it's going to be in the Coliseum, you know, like, I like UFC and everything, but we don't have, like, tons of ads and UFC branding on the Coliseum because it's historical, you know, play.
2:00:30Elon MuskIt's a history, you know, it's a place of great history. You don't want to just, you know, have it be all like, nascar, Right? So then. And then Zuck pulled out.
2:00:42Elon MuskYou know, use the pull out method.
2:00:45Joe RoganSo he pulled out of it. He pulled out of it.
2:00:47Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.
2:00:49Joe RoganOh, what was the narrative? What'd you hear, Jamie?
2:00:53Elon MuskI don't remember. Well, I know I'm willing to. So he was like, oh, no, it's got to be UFC rules. I'm like, well, okay, we're gonna have USCD rules in the Coliseum.
2:01:01Elon MuskIt's fine. But we just don't have. We gotta respect the historical integrity of the place.
2:01:06Joe RoganYou just. The Coliseum just seems like the coolest place to do it. That's why.
2:01:09Elon MuskI mean, like, Gladiator, you know, Come on.
2:01:12Joe RoganAnd if they said it's okay.
2:01:13Elon MuskYeah.
2:01:14Joe RoganSo he just wants it to be in the actual ufc, like, in Vegas.
2:01:17Elon MuskSo then he said, oh, well, you know, he accused me of not being serious. And I said, look, listen, at the end of the day, if I'll fight you any place, anywhere, under any rules.
2:01:28Elon MuskOh, Zuck. That's what I said. So I'm, you know, name the. He said, name the place. I'm like, I'm happy to fight him in a house on a mouse with a louse.
2:01:41Elon MuskWe'd, like, go pull Dr. Seuss here now.
2:01:43Joe RoganHow much time?
2:01:45Elon MuskI'm way bigger than him. This is unfair. I don't think you should fight me.
2:01:49Joe RoganBecause you're so much bigger than him.
2:01:50Elon MuskYeah, I'm like 50% happier than him. Yeah, I'll just use a wall. I've got my patented walrus move. I just lie on him. Well, you know, like, walrus doesn't need martial arts training because it's really big.
2:02:04Elon MuskYou don't want to go wrestling a walrus. Right, because it's gonna roll on you.
2:02:08Joe RoganHave you ever been. Ever rolled with someone who's much smaller than you? That does jiu Jitsu?
2:02:12Elon MuskYes.
2:02:13Joe RoganYou Lacks.
2:02:14Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah. No, I did 10 years of martial arts.
2:02:17Joe RoganHow much have you trained personally for?
2:02:20Elon MuskA decade of it.
2:02:21Joe RoganWell, you did a lot of karate, right?
2:02:23Elon MuskI did judo. Judo Kai. Shinkai karate.
2:02:26Joe RoganYeah.
2:02:28Elon MuskI did some jiu jitsu, taekwondo, street fighting, which was involuntary. I think I'd be decent. I did martial arts competitions when I was a teenager.
2:02:42Joe RoganReally? Interesting. So look at George St. Pierre. Elon Musk.
2:02:46Elon MuskYeah.
2:02:46Joe RoganJohn Donahue, the great master. And Lex Friedman.
2:02:49Elon MuskBut like. Like, Lex is. I think he's got, like, 20% heavier than Zuck, so. And I'm way bigger than Lex.
2:02:55Joe RoganYeah.
2:02:57Elon MuskThat's why they have weight categories. Oh, yeah, yeah.
2:03:01Joe RoganDid you get a chance to talk to Donahuer at all? The guy on the left. That guy's fascinating.
2:03:06Elon MuskYeah. No, no, he's.
2:03:07Joe RoganDo you know his history?
2:03:08Elon MuskNo. He's from New Zealand or something.
2:03:10Joe RoganHe was a professor of philosophy at Columbia and fell in love with Jiu Jitsu. I mean, fell in love with it to the point where he was sleeping on the mats and teaching all day long.
2:03:18Joe RoganHe's an obsessive. He is a real Kaizen disciple.
2:03:23Elon MuskHe seems Zen.
2:03:24Joe RoganOh, man. He's one of the most unique characters I've ever met in my life. One of the most brilliant men I've ever met. And he's completely dedicated to Jiu Jitsu.
2:03:34Joe RoganAnd he has raised through this, particularly this one disciple, Gordon Ryan, who also lives here in Austin. He's the greatest Jiu Jitsu competitor of all time. There's no question.
2:03:42Joe RoganAnd he's only 28.
2:03:44Elon MuskOkay.
2:03:44Joe RoganHe might even be 27, or maybe he's 28 now. But, I mean, he is universally regarded as the greatest of all time, and he is John's greatest student.
2:03:52Elon MuskOkay?
2:03:52Joe RoganAnd the two of them together, because Gordon has insane work ethic. They work 365 days a year. They do not take any days off. They train every day. That's Gordon to the right of John with the crazy beard.
2:04:04Joe RoganHe doesn't really have that hair. He bleaches it. But the two of them together are literally an unstoppable combination.
2:04:09Elon MuskThat guy looks ripped.
2:04:10Joe RoganHe's pretty ripped, yeah. He's a combination of gigantic, brilliant, and insanely dedicated with the most incredible instructor that's ever existed. I mean, John Donagher is universally regarded as the greatest Jiu jitsu instructor alive.
2:04:25Joe RoganAnd his student is universally regarded as the greatest jiu jitsu competitor alive.
2:04:30Elon MuskYeah.
2:04:31Joe RoganAnd it is because John is like a complete. Like a guy out of a superhero Book like you wouldn't, you know, you're not going to find another one of those.
2:04:41Joe RoganA guy with a genius level IQ who's one of me. You talk to him. He's fascinating. And he is obsessed with combat sports, warfare, like. Like strategy.
2:04:54Elon MuskYeah.
2:04:54Joe RoganBrilliant guy.
2:04:55Elon MuskYeah. I was impressed when I met him. I mean, the things that, like if I was finding someone who I was not where I was, not much bigger than them, then I would be more concerned.
2:05:10Joe RoganHow much time would you need to prepare?
2:05:13Elon MuskI don't need any time.
2:05:14Joe RoganNo time at all?
2:05:15Elon MuskNo.
2:05:16Joe RoganHow's your cardio?
2:05:17Elon MuskIt's not. That will not be a factor. Really? Yeah.
2:05:24Joe RoganI mean, what's the likelihood of this actually happening?
2:05:27Elon MuskI like, I'm willing to do it anytime, anywhere, any place, any rules.
2:05:30Joe RoganWell, I think this stating it this way might accelerate this process, especially on this platform.
2:05:35Elon MuskI mean, I challenge him to a duel under any circumstances.
2:05:40Joe RoganA sword fight, sure. Jesus. That's not.
2:05:44Elon MuskPistols at dawn.
2:05:45Joe RoganThat's not necessary. I think physical hand Nerf guns at noon. Nerf cuts at noon. Well, you could slash it out in the Metaverse, but in the real world.
2:05:57Elon MuskListen, there's just a reason they have weight categories, you know, so, you know, there's a friend of mine who is pretty good at fighting, but she weighs about half of what I do.
2:06:13Elon MuskAnd, and I said, let me show you why there's weird categories I'm fighting and I'm going to do a move called the walrus. And you have to just. I'm just going to lie on you.
2:06:23Elon MuskI'm not going to put you in a lock or anything. I'm just going to lie on you, but I'm going to position myself such that it's hard to get out in front of me.
2:06:32Elon MuskAnd I just want to lie crossways on you and you try to get away and you won't be able to get away because you couldn't just, you know, like if a horse falls on you, you can get trapped under a
2:06:46Joe Roganhorse, but you're not a horse. What do you weigh, about 230?
2:06:49Elon MuskYeah. 240.
2:06:51Joe RoganYeah.
2:06:53Elon MuskSo no, no, I'm not a horse. But I'm saying in the limit, if something's heavy enough, like, you know, if a horse falls on you and dies, you can get trapped under a horse and not be able to get yourself out.
2:07:02Joe RoganRight. But if someone's good enough, I mean, I'm sure you've seen like absolute weight classes in jiu jitsu where you'll get 145 pound competitor who strangles a 220 pound competitor and they're both well trained.
2:07:13Joe RoganBecause if someone is that unlikely. It's not unlikely. It happens quite often when you get elite competitors. When you get elite competitors, like elite black belts at the 145, 155 pound weight limit, you'd be shocked.
2:07:25Joe RoganThere's a ton of videos of these guys who will strangle much larger black belts.
2:07:30Elon MuskI'm not saying it's impossible. It's just highly unlikely. And if this were not the case, there would not be strict weight categories in martial arts.
2:07:38Joe RoganThat is true. That is true. But the reason why they allow absolutes in jiu jitsu is because it is the thrill of watching these smaller people go against much larger people.
2:07:50Joe RoganAnd sometimes they win.
2:07:52Elon MuskNo, just like armies, people take note when a small army defeats a big army. Because it is so unusual.
2:08:04Joe RoganYes.
2:08:04Elon MuskNot because it's normal.
2:08:05Joe RoganRight.
2:08:06Elon MuskYou know, if there's like. It's like it was two against 10,000 and boy, do we beat those two guys up. More likely. What happens, like, if you're severely outnumbered, you will lose, almost certainly.
2:08:20Joe RoganSo look at the size difference between these two guys. Play it out. Well, it's the end of the video. This is Mikey Musimechi, who is another fascinating individual. This guy is another super genius who trains every day, 12 hours a day, and he is competing against a black belt in the heavyweight division.
2:08:39Joe RoganMikey Musimechi might weigh 145 pounds and he beats this guy.
2:08:44Elon MuskGuy doesn't look to be in super great shape.
2:08:46Joe RoganWell, he's enormous. Yeah, I mean, he's enormous and he's a black belt, so he's skilled. I forget how Mikey wins this.
2:08:54Elon MuskHe catches him.
2:08:55Joe RoganSomething tell what exactly happened. Get it a little bit further here. I think what happened here, it seemed like he got penalties or something. Oh, they pushed him out of bounds.
2:09:05Joe RoganI don't know what that one. I think they're out of bounds. Just. Yeah, that's all that it was. That's just out of bounds. So scoot ahead and see what happens.
2:09:14Joe RoganWhat he catches him with what happened.
2:09:18Elon MuskI'm not saying it's impossible. It's just very unlikely.
2:09:20Joe RoganOh, so he won by points. Yeah, so I won. Okay, so he won by.
2:09:23Elon MuskI think you're making the point for me here.
2:09:25Joe RoganYeah, well, in that case, that guy's strangled a lot of much larger people than him. But again, he's extraordinary. He's a world champion. He's a world champion, for one, which is this huge organization in Singapore.
2:09:39Joe RoganThey do these events where they have all kinds of different martial arts. They have mma, Thai boxing.
2:09:43Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
2:09:46Joe RoganSo you do it under any rules?
2:09:48Elon MuskSure.
2:09:49Joe RoganAll right, let's go. I like. I like the fact that you're interested in doing this. It's fun. It makes it fun.
2:09:56Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I could, you know, this could be an exercise in hubris.
2:10:05Joe RoganWe could find. I like the fact that Zuck's interested in it too. I like the fact that he trained so much.
2:10:11Elon MuskYeah, I mean, there's. There aren't very many ways to actually. If you stick with the rules of jiu jitsu, like, for example, if you want to put someone in an arm lock, you have to be able to extend their arm.
2:10:22Elon MuskAnd if somebody is strong enough that you cannot extend their arm, then you're limited to chokes. Chokes. And you can do an arm lock across the groin with both arms and legs.
2:10:34Elon MuskLike hoist Gracie did upside down. And it was like the third UFC fight or something like that. He was pretty severely damaged.
2:10:43Joe RoganThat was when he fought chemo. Yeah. That enormous guy.
2:10:45Elon MuskYeah. And he did upside down arm lock across the groin because he could not do an arm lock, you know, a sort of sidebar unlock. So. But after that, people were like, why is to that move?
2:10:57Elon MuskSo they were like, we're not going to be allow themselves to get an arm lock across the groin without, you know, that was like a, you know, overconfidence, I think.
2:11:09Joe RoganWell, it was exhaustion. I mean, they fought like tooth and nail for something like seven or eight minutes. And, you know, hoist survived and then eventually wore the guy.
2:11:19Joe RoganWell, when you're a big steroided up guy like that too, the oxygen depletion, like the amount of oxygen your muscles require. You gas out pretty quickly when you're that big, unless you're insanely conditioned.
2:11:30Elon MuskYeah, but like, there's no way for him to do, you know, like a single arm armlock.
2:11:37Joe RoganHe couldn't do it because single arm arm bar.
2:11:39Elon MuskIf you try to do a lock on the side.
2:11:42Joe RoganSo like in side control. So from someone legs across your face. Is that what you mean?
2:11:47Elon MuskIf you try to do an arm bar on the side, one arm across the knee or across the thigh, you have to be able to extend the arm, essentially, your triceps have to be able to exceed the strength of their biceps is what it comes down to.
2:12:06Elon MuskBut if you cannot exceed the strength of that bicep, then you will not be able to do an arm extension.
2:12:11Joe RoganI'm not sure what I. Are you talking about, like a Kimura, Like a straight arm bar.
2:12:15Elon MuskYeah.
2:12:15Joe RoganOh, so you're talking about, like, with
2:12:17Elon Muskjust the arms, where you just have one arm. Like if it's one arm versus one arm.
2:12:24Joe RoganBut that's never the case. It's almost always the whole body's engaged.
2:12:29Elon MuskThat's. I think that's. It's. Well, in judo, that's a very common hold. Very common.
2:12:35Joe RoganA one arm arm bar.
2:12:37Elon MuskYeah, one arm. You know, you have your one arm around the neck, and you take their arm and you extend it across.
2:12:45Joe RoganOh, I see what you're saying. Okay, so like, from a scarf hold. So a scarf hold, you would take the arm and put it over and you would push it down with one arm.
2:12:54Joe RoganYeah. That's unusual, though. Yeah, that's an unusual arm bar.
2:12:57Elon MuskBut if one person is much stronger than another, then they can.
2:13:00Joe RoganThat one.
2:13:01Elon MuskThat's the move. Yeah, it's a very fast move because you can take someone right from a throw, drop them on the floor, right into an armbar.
2:13:08Joe RoganYeah. Okay. That's a very specific armbar.
2:13:11Elon Musk10 seconds, right?
2:13:12Joe RoganThat's a rare armbar. You never see that in mma. What you do see, though, is the two legs isolate the arm, and then the person grabs a hold of it with the thumb up and uses all of their body weight.
2:13:24Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. That's what. That's what Gracie did.
2:13:26Joe RoganYeah. That's what most people do when they apply an arm bar, whether it's from the back, like, you know, a lot of people have done that, or whether it's from side control, which is a little more easy because you have control of the body.
2:13:38Elon MuskYeah. I mean, it's also just that, you know, UFC is not just jiu jitsu. You can punch people.
2:13:44Joe RoganRight. That makes a big difference.
2:13:45Elon MuskBig difference.
2:13:46Joe RoganBig difference.
2:13:47Elon MuskHuge.
2:13:48Joe RoganMMA has changed the ideas of jiu jitsu because there's a lot of techniques that people do where it works well in competition, when someone's, like, grabbing your leg, when you can't just rain down punches on their face.
2:14:00Elon MuskYeah, There's a lot of iron rolls. If somebody's pounding you in the face, it's pretty hard to be chill, you know, especially if they're waving. If somebody's got gorilla fists in your face, it's not going to be a good day.
2:14:12Joe RoganYeah. Carlson, Gracie famously had a phrase that if you take a black belt, you punch him in the face, he's. He becomes a brown belt. Punch him again, he becomes a purple belt, and so on and so forth.
2:14:25Elon MuskI mean, most people have not Been punched in the face? I haven't punched the face.
2:14:27Joe RoganThat's true.
2:14:29Elon MuskSo, you know, it just comes as a surprise.
2:14:33Joe RoganYeah, yeah. It probably does come as a prize.
2:14:36Elon MuskI mean, there's also like. Even the UFC has a lot of limitations. Like you can't do 12 o' clock elbows.
2:14:41Joe RoganYou know, that's changing.
2:14:43Elon MuskThey're getting rid of core gobblers.
2:14:45Joe RoganFinally. Finally. I've been singing that from the top of the roof forever, okay? It's so nuts. It's so stupid. You know what it came from?
2:14:52Elon MuskNo.
2:14:53Joe RoganIt came From Big John McCarthy, who is the original UFC referee, okay. And pioneer of the sport. He was bringing this to athletic commissions and they were allowing certain techniques, but one of them they wouldn't allow was the 12 to 6 elbow because they saw those late night karate demonstrations where someone would, like smash a wood or whatever.
2:15:11Joe RoganThey thought someone would die if they hit him with this.
2:15:13Elon MuskDefinitely going to sting.
2:15:15Joe RoganYeah. But it's not even harder than this one. This one's harder because this one, you can throw your body weight into it and it's a more natural movement. This is an unusual movement.
2:15:26Joe RoganI mean, I'm sure you could train it and get it probably as hard. But I think for most people, for me, I can tell you for sure, this elbow has more power.
2:15:35Elon MuskWell, I think any elbow in the face is going to be a big wake up call. If you've never had an elbow, it fucking sucks.
2:15:40Joe RoganYes, it fucking sucks. Did you watch Tyson Fury Francis Ngannou boxing match?
2:15:44Elon MuskSo the one where he bit the ear off?
2:15:46Joe RoganNo, this is the.
2:15:46Elon MuskThat's Mike Tyson. Evander Holyfield.
2:15:49Joe RoganThat's from the 90s.
2:15:51Elon MuskYeah.
2:15:51Joe RoganNo, this fight that took place this last weekend, Francis Ngannou is the UFC heavyweight champion. He vacated the belt so he could take this fight with Tyson Fury. This was his dream fight.
2:16:00Joe RoganTyson Fury, who's the lineal heavyweight champion. Francis Ngannou had never had a boxing match ever in his life. Had zero boxing matches, but he was the UFC heavyweight champion, okay.
2:16:12Joe RoganKnocked down Tyson Fury in the third round, beat him up in the eighth round. Most people, including me, thought he should have won the decision, including most boxers, most boxing pundits.
2:16:24Joe RoganAnd he lost by one point on one judge's scorecard. He won on one judge's scorecard. Another judge who should go to jail had it 96, 93 for Tyson Fury, which is four outrageous.
2:16:35Joe RoganBut Francis Ngannou, who is a literal freak of nature, I mean, this guy grew up in Cameroon and was working in the sand mines when he was a child.
2:16:46Joe RoganLike a Conan movie.
2:16:48Elon MuskLike full on. Yeah, exactly. Conan's like, pushing the thing around in a circle. Yeah.
2:16:53Joe RoganDeveloping his body, digging the sand all day. He's okay supremely. Physically looks fit. He's not just fit. He's the hardest puncher ever measured in all of mma. There's a machine that we actually have outside at the gym, and if you hit this thing, Francis has hit it harder than any person really ever lived.
2:17:13Joe RoganYeah, well, look at him. Can I hit it? Yeah, we set it up. I had record for the kick for a while. Okay, somebody. A couple people beat it now.
2:17:23Joe RoganBut Francis punched like. It's an insane. It's like getting hit by a fucking car.
2:17:28Elon MuskSure.
2:17:28Joe RoganAnd when he dropped Tyson Fury in the third round, you see Tyson's on his back going, what the fuck? And then he realizes, like, because he. I think he.
2:17:36Elon MuskYeah, a sledgehammer.
2:17:39Joe RoganWe thought he was going to run him over because he's the boxing heavyweight champions. Like, there's no way this guy could box with me. He even said at the beginning of the fight, it's time to go to school.
2:17:46Elon MuskOkay.
2:17:47Joe RoganAnd then Francis said at the end of the fight, you are a shitty professor. You should watch it. It's a good show. I mean, it's on ESPN plus. I'm pretty sure you could still get it.
2:17:58Elon MuskYeah. Anyway, I just. It's.
2:18:04Joe RoganYeah, I'm just excited that you're interested in doing it still.
2:18:06Elon MuskSure.
2:18:10Joe RoganAll right. Didn't you fuck you back up doing, like, sumo wrestling?
2:18:16Elon MuskYeah.
2:18:19Joe RoganWhat happened there?
2:18:21Elon MuskStill hurts a little bit. Actually. I've had, like, four operations, really?
2:18:25Joe RoganFrom that?
2:18:25Elon MuskWell, I had, like. I had, like, some childhood injuries. Like I said, I was in some pretty severe fights as a kid. Like, really, like, I was almost killed at one point.
2:18:35Joe RoganSo really, what happened?
2:18:39Elon MuskI was just in school in South Africa. It's a very violent place, so there's been many involuntary fights just the way it was. But anyway, so I had, like.
2:18:53Elon MuskAnd I had some rugby injuries as well. I saw South Africa won the World cup, which is cool. And rugby. So I think that was, like, not a good starting position.
2:19:05Elon MuskBut then the World champion sumo wrestlers. World champion sumo wrestler. They did kind of like a demo bout for my birthday. And since it was my birthday, I guess they just.
2:19:16Elon MuskThey call up the birthday boy and say, like, hey, do you want to sumo wrestle? This is where it's a similar weight differential. He was 50% heavier than me, so, like, I don't know, 360, 370 pounds and I knew he'd take it easy on me in the first round.
2:19:34Elon MuskSo the only way I'm going to knock him over is momentum. So I got to basically run at him. So I did run at him, did a judo throw, knocked him over and smashed the disc in my neck in the process.
2:19:47Elon MuskOh, yeah. It's like. It'd be like running at that wall. You know, if you run out of wall, it's gonna hurt.
2:19:54Joe RoganDid you have to get it fused or anything?
2:19:56Elon MuskYeah.
2:19:56Joe RoganOh, man.
2:19:58Elon MuskSo it's like you can knock. You can you. You can knock over someone, you can defeat someone big than you, if willing to, you know, smash a disc in your neck.
2:20:06Joe RoganYeah, well, if you know what you're doing and you're willing to smash a disc in your neck, those two things.
2:20:11Elon MuskSo he wasn't expecting me to be a total lunatic on round one. Now, he defeated me, obviously, in round two and three because he was like, oh, guys knows what to expect.
2:20:20Elon MuskBut. So I like five minutes of glory and a decade of pain.
2:20:29Joe RoganNow that you've got your neck fused, that creates problems with the upper and lower discs as well, doesn't it?
2:20:37Elon MuskOver time, if there's too much neck rotation, it can be. It can damage the.
2:20:41Joe RoganHow long ago was this that you had this operation?
2:20:45Elon MuskMan, I had three operations where you got it fused.
2:20:48Joe RoganHow long ago?
2:20:49Elon MuskI had two artificial discs, and I'm actually in favor of artificial disks. They put the wrong ones. Wrong disk in, but then eventually the third one is like, let's just fuse it.
2:20:58Joe RoganThey put the wrong one in?
2:21:00Elon MuskYeah, twice.
2:21:03Joe RoganHow so? Because I have friends that have artificial discs.
2:21:06Elon MuskYeah, I'm actually in favor of artificial discs. You just need to have the right one. So in my case, at this point, I know a lot about it. The C5, C6 right facet is impacting the facets like the outriggers.
2:21:21Elon MuskYou've got the center of cord of the spine facets, the outriggers, and they're shingled, so they're like one on top of the other like this. There's a little nerve that goes out in between the C5, C6.
2:21:32Elon MuskAnd if those vertebrae come close together, they grind the nerve. So you get the. They just sort of start shearing the nerve now. So my C5, C6, right. FaceTime, it shows up clear as day on, like, a technetium scan.
2:21:52Elon MuskSo if you could do, like a radioactive scan with technetium, it's very clear where the problem is. So what should have been done was a simple hinge, like you know, basically to move the.
2:22:10Elon MuskMove the vertebra, basically the C5 vertebra, back about maybe an eighth of an inch to sort of unload the facet and then put a simple hinge, so just rotation.
2:22:23Elon MuskBut I was given what is called a MOBI C, which is more mobile disk. The MOBI C allows it not just rotation, but also translation, so it can move back and forth.
2:22:34Elon MuskSo that then didn't solve the impacting of the C5 C6, because it could slide. And when it would slide forward, the C5 C6 would bang and crunch the nerf.
2:22:46Joe RoganAnd what does the normal neck do? Does the neck move forward in that way?
2:22:52Elon MuskThe disc is like a gummy bear, basically, normally. So it allows rotation and translation. So it's like sitting on, like a jello pillow.
2:23:02Joe RoganThat's what, like one of those Bosu balls that people sit on their desk.
2:23:06Elon MuskIt's like a rubber pillow, basically.
2:23:09Joe RoganYeah.
2:23:12Elon MuskSo the natural disk allows for rotation and translation. So they basically put a disk that had too much mobility in and did not solve the C5 C6 nerve impact.
2:23:26Elon MuskSo then the third time around is like, listen, I just don't want to take a chance here. Let's just fuse it. Oh, wow.
2:23:34Joe RoganAnd so it just limits your mobility.
2:23:36Elon MuskNo, I'm fine. I'm like, I can look right and left. It's okay.
2:23:40Joe RoganYeah, that's okay.
2:23:41Elon MuskYeah. I'm not like, you know, totally stiff necked.
2:23:44Joe RoganNo, you don't seem like you're stiff necked at all. No, there was a guy who fought in the UFC named Yoel Romero, and he's a real freak, too. Amazing athlete.
2:23:53Joe RoganAnd he came from the Cuban wrestling program. He was one of the greatest wrestlers that's, like, ever competed amateur wise. He had his entire neck fused. And when he runs like, his neck doesn't move, it's kind of freakish.
2:24:06Elon MuskOkay.
2:24:07Joe RoganLike, you see him running and his neck looks like it's a stick.
2:24:10Elon MuskWow.
2:24:10Joe RoganAnd the whole body is like, like moving around, but the neck is just locked in place. It's very bizarre to look at. I mean, he runs like a man whose entire neck is fused.
2:24:22Joe RoganLike, watch him. See if you could show the image of him here. Watch him run.
2:24:27Elon MuskWow.
2:24:27Joe RoganSee how his neck.
2:24:28Elon MuskHe's in good shape?
2:24:29Joe RoganOh, yeah. You think? I mean, you don't get in any better shape than this guy. By the way, he looks like that now. And he's 46, 47 years old and still competing at the highest level.
2:24:41Elon MuskOkay.
2:24:42Joe RoganIn Bellator. I mean, he's an unbelievable Athlete and one of the most explosive guys that's ever fought in the sport. Just insanely powerful and fast.
2:24:51Elon MuskYeah. Cool.
2:24:55Joe RoganSo you compete at the highest level with your neck fused.
2:24:58Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not too worried about that, Al.
2:25:00Joe RoganJermaine Sterling, who was the UFC bantamweight champion, he got his neck fused and. Or not got a disc replaced, rather, in his neck, and then went on to defend his title three times.
2:25:13Joe RoganStill fighting at the highest level with a fake disc in his neck.
2:25:17Elon MuskWell, I guess it'll be okay then.
2:25:19Joe RoganYeah. Well, medical science, pretty fucking incredible what they can do now, you know, I mean, injuries that would have, like, you would have been fucked for the rest of your life just a few decades ago.
2:25:30Elon MuskYeah.
2:25:31Joe RoganNow you're good to go.
2:25:33Elon MuskYeah.
2:25:34Joe RoganSo I'm excited. We've kind of rekindled this Zuck versus Elon fire.
2:25:38Elon MuskI mean, he's chicken out. What? That's.
2:25:39Joe RoganI don't think he's checking out.
2:25:40Elon MuskYeah, no, he's chicken out.
2:25:42Joe RoganDo you think so?
2:25:42Elon MuskYeah.
2:25:43Joe RoganWell, maybe he's.
2:25:49Elon MuskI'll goad him into fighting using taunts.
2:25:52Joe RoganIt might work.
2:25:52Elon MuskYeah.
2:25:53Joe RoganI mean, somehow or another, you got him green in the first place. I was stunned.
2:25:59Elon MuskSurely he will respond to a taunt like that.
2:26:01Joe RoganYeah, surely. I mean, how can you resist?
2:26:04Elon MuskHow can he resist? Exactly. Just go, let's go. Full school, schoolyard taunting.
2:26:11Joe RoganWhat if there was like, real consequences on the line? Like, what if you guys had a real bet?
2:26:16Elon MuskOkay.
2:26:16Joe RoganLike the moderation team from X takes over moderation of Facebook, and if you win, no problem.
2:26:21Elon MuskSounds good.
2:26:21Joe RoganAnd if he wins, vice versa.
2:26:23Elon MuskThere's a fight for civilization.
2:26:25Joe RoganYeah, a literal fight for civilization.
2:26:28Elon MuskI mean, I'll do it.
2:26:29Joe RoganWow, Heavy. And you wouldn't even train for this?
2:26:35Elon MuskNo, I train a little bit.
2:26:36Joe RoganTrain a little bit?
2:26:37Elon MuskYeah.
2:26:38Joe RoganLike, how many weeks do you need?
2:26:42Elon MuskI mean, I don't have to train. I could do it like tomorrow. I tried going to his house, actually.
2:26:48Joe RoganDid you really?
2:26:48Elon MuskYeah, because he lives in Palo Alto and we're doing some, you know, Tesla full self driving testing. So I'm like, well, got to pick a destination.
2:26:57Joe RoganYou just press the button, go, doo doo, navigate to Zuck's house.
2:26:59Elon MuskYeah, basically, he's not far. He's like, I think he's like three miles away from the Tesla California headquarters.
2:27:07Joe RoganWow.
2:27:09Elon MuskBut I don't know. There's nobody there.
2:27:13Joe RoganHe's probably in Hawaii.
2:27:15Elon MuskAccording to a spokesman, he was traveling.
2:27:17Joe RoganOh, yeah.
2:27:18Elon MuskBeen wild.
2:27:19Joe RoganIf he was there, what would you say?
2:27:21Elon MuskLiterally anytime. I just thought it was funny to go, like, you know, I'm coming over to your house. I'm gonna get you.
2:27:31Joe RoganWell, it's even more funny when it's two of the richest guys in the world.
2:27:34Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. So anyway, he didn't. Didn't answer.
2:27:39Joe RoganWell, too bad.
2:27:41Elon MuskYeah, too bad.
2:27:42Joe RoganIt's. It's just fun. It's fun, and I'm glad you're. Just for the fun of it.
2:27:48Elon MuskI mean, I think it would be. Well, actually, like, Dana. Dana White thinks it would be like the. Like the. You know, a really big ticket.
2:27:55Joe RoganIt would be fucking huge. I would commentate on that.
2:27:58Elon MuskYeah. I mean, the proceeds could go to charity and stuff. It'd be huge. Yeah. Be crazy. People would want to see what the hell is going on.
2:28:03Joe RoganOh, my God. It would be fucking huge.
2:28:05Elon MuskYeah.
2:28:06Joe RoganYeah. It would be really crazy. Crazy, like, if they close the thing.
2:28:10Elon MuskYeah.
2:28:11Joe RoganAnd Bruce Buffer is in there.
2:28:12Elon MuskYeah.
2:28:13Joe RoganIt's time.
2:28:15Elon MuskLet's go.
2:28:15Joe RoganThe place would go fucking bananas.
2:28:17Elon MuskBananas.
2:28:18Joe RoganYeah. Yeah.
2:28:20Elon MuskLet's do it.
2:28:21Joe RoganDoes it have to be in the Coliseum? Would you agree?
2:28:22Elon MuskNo, I'll do it anywhere. I literally said anywhere. Anytime, you know, where you should.
2:28:27Joe RoganAny rules, you know, you should do it. The Sphere in Las Vegas.
2:28:30Elon MuskThe Sphere is great.
2:28:31Joe RoganI was just there. Amazing.
2:28:33Elon MuskIt's amazing.
2:28:33Joe RoganIt's amazing.
2:28:34Elon MuskYeah. I was there.
2:28:35Joe RoganSeen on the outside, but it looks.
2:28:37Elon MuskThe inside's even better.
2:28:38Joe RoganI've seen video. I haven't seen it live, but I.
2:28:40Elon MuskI was there on Saturday night, and it was. It's awesome. Like, it's really good. I think it might be the best show on Earth.
2:28:46Joe RoganOh, yeah?
2:28:47Elon MuskYeah.
2:28:47Joe RoganI mean, if you have visuals that accompany the music, like, if you have, like, someone like Roger Waters, like, which his show is, like, insanely visual, something like that in the Sphere would be incredible.
2:28:59Elon MuskThe art in the show that I saw on Saturday night was incredibly good. I don't know who did all the
2:29:04Joe Roganart, but what was the band?
2:29:06Elon MuskIt was U2.
2:29:07Joe RoganOh, yeah.
2:29:07Elon MuskYeah. But I mean, I've been to U2 concerts, and U2 is great, but the sphere is really, like. If U2 hadn't been there, it'd still be great.
2:29:17Joe RoganYeah.
2:29:17Elon MuskYou know, you two. It's like a. You know, like, on Sunday, there was a movie that was played. A movie there.
2:29:25Joe RoganWow. Where do you look?
2:29:28Elon MuskYeah, in all directions.
2:29:30Joe RoganOh, my God.
2:29:31Elon MuskYeah. I mean, it's like actually being, like, in. In virtual reality. In fact, it was such. It was so wild. The Saturday night one especially, that you. You step outside after the show and, like, you're like, why is reality so boring?
2:29:48Joe RoganOh, so this is a postcard from Earth.
2:29:50Elon MuskDarren Aronofsky's thing.
2:29:52Joe RoganOh, wow. And you're watching this.
2:29:54Elon MuskI saw that on Sunday.
2:29:55Joe RoganAnd it covers the whole ceiling. Oh, my God.
2:29:58Elon MuskIt's really great.
2:29:59Joe RoganYou saw it there?
2:30:00Elon MuskYeah.
2:30:01Joe RoganOh, my God. That's incredible.
2:30:04Elon MuskYeah, it's really good.
2:30:05Joe RoganThat'd be the greatest movie ever, I
2:30:08Elon Muskthink, like the Saturday night show. And obviously YouTube adds to it, but like I said, the Sphere is really special in and of itself. I think it's probably the best show I've seen.
2:30:19Joe RoganWow. Yeah, I can imagine. I mean, it's just. What an amazing venue and what an incredible idea.
2:30:24Elon MuskYeah, it's really.
2:30:25Joe RoganTo have the entire ceiling, all screen.
2:30:28Elon MuskI gotta hand it to Dolan.
2:30:29Joe RoganThat was amazing.
2:30:30Elon MuskYeah.
2:30:31Joe RoganAbsolutely amazing. I'm so glad that he did that. And then also the outside. Oh, that's incredible.
2:30:37Elon MuskThey really play with perspective because it's.
2:30:39Joe RoganIt's.
2:30:40Elon MuskIt's round, but it doesn't look round.
2:30:41Joe RoganRight.
2:30:42Elon MuskSo it'll. It'll be like. It'll simulate like a. Like a square, like all sorts of shapes.
2:30:47Joe RoganWow. And then also the outside of it. Like, they had the outside of it. It looked like Earth. It's just amazing.
2:30:53Elon MuskIt's really cool.
2:30:54Joe RoganYeah, super cool.
2:30:56Elon MuskI like these epic things.
2:30:57Joe RoganThat's the venue, you know?
2:30:59Elon MuskIt's really cool.
2:31:00Joe RoganThat's the venue. That's where it needs to go down in the sphere.
2:31:03Elon MuskSure.
2:31:03Joe RoganYeah. That's even better than Coliseum.
2:31:05Elon MuskOkay.
2:31:05Joe RoganYeah. Especially if the United States falls. That would be our Coliseum. This would be our Rome. Vegas will be our Rome.
2:31:12Elon MuskI mean, the spirit did remind me of being like a modern day Coliseum.
2:31:16Joe RoganYeah, yeah. Like a modern day version. Like, what would they do? Yeah. With our technology currently. Yeah. And then Vegas is like, kind of Romesque in the sense that when we think about, like, the.
2:31:28Joe RoganThe hedonism of Rome its final days, that's Vegas.
2:31:32Elon MuskYeah.
2:31:32Joe RoganYeah, totally. Yeah. Perfect.
2:31:35Elon MuskYeah.
2:31:35Joe RoganLet's go.
2:31:36Elon MuskLet's go.
2:31:38Joe RoganAre you not entertained? You will fucking be entertained.
2:31:42Elon MuskYou'll be fucking. Fucking so entertained.
2:31:44Joe RoganNo doubt.
2:31:47Elon MuskLet's do it.
2:31:49Joe RoganThere's one point in time where you were trying to get people to do a pause on AI.
2:31:55Elon MuskI mean, I signed on to a letter that someone else wrote. I didn't think that people would actually pause.
2:32:01Joe RoganBut you thought it was probably a good idea if they did.
2:32:05Elon MuskI mean, I think so, yeah. I mean, making some sort of digital superintelligence seems like it could be dangerous.
2:32:16Joe RoganIt certainly has a Potential and certainly has the potential. Well, when you were talking about what this mind virus, how it was able to propagate through social media and being in control of social media platforms, think about what that means if that same mind virus gets in control of a superintelligence.
2:32:40Joe RoganAnd that is possible.
2:32:40Elon MuskYeah, no, that's what, that's actually what I think the biggest danger is for AI is that if AI is implicitly programmed, I don't think they're explicitly, but implicitly programmed with values that lead to, that have led to the destruction of downtown San Francisco, and a bunch of these AI companies are either in San Francisco or in the San Francisco Bay area, then you could implicitly program an AI to believe that extinction of humanity is what it should try to do.
2:33:12Elon MuskI mean, if you take that guy who's on the front pages of the New York Times and you take his philosophy, which is prevalent in San Francisco, the AI could, could conclude like he did, that there are eight.
2:33:27Elon MuskWhere he literally says there are 8 billion people in the world. It would be better if there are none and engineer that outcome.
2:33:35Joe RoganYeah, well, especially if it doesn't need us anymore. If it becomes sentient and then has the ability to make its own decisions and make a better version of itself, it would find us to be nothing but a problem.
2:33:50Joe RoganLike we have nothing to offer.
2:33:52Elon MuskYeah, it is a risk. So, you know, and like, if you query ChatGPT, I mean, it's pretty woke, you know.
2:34:01Joe RoganYeah.
2:34:01Elon MuskSo people did like experiments, like write a poem praising Donald Trump and it won't, but you ask, write a poem praising Joe Biden and it will.
2:34:11Joe RoganYeah.
2:34:12Elon MuskSo I'm like, you know, it's a little sketchy.
2:34:15Joe RoganYeah, well, it's unfortunately, it's programmed and.
2:34:19Elon MuskYes. Yeah, it's programmed to be that way.
2:34:22Joe RoganIs it possible to overcome those problems? Is it possible that we could realize the dangers that are involved in creating this, but somehow or another engineer it in a way that would be ultimately beneficial to people, or is that just a whim, has a hope and a prayer, utopian version of what could happen versus the most likely outcome.
2:34:51Elon MuskIf you say, like, what is the most likely outcome of AI? I think the most likely outcome, to be specific about it, is a good outcome, Most likely a good outcome, but it's not for sure.
2:35:02Elon MuskSo I think we have to be careful how we program the AI and make sure that it is not accidentally anti human. So, you know, the accidentally extinctionist AI, you wouldn't want that
2:35:26Joe Roganor even pruning.
2:35:29Elon MuskWell, that is kind of how it works is that these, what they call large language models, but it's really just a big pile of numbers. And how you tune those numbers matters.
2:35:44Elon MuskIt's like pruning a tree. You could have a mighty oak. It could be a little bonsai or a mighty oak, depending on how you prune it.
2:35:54Joe RoganRight. That's what I'm saying. If it decided to prune, if it decided the real issue, perhaps we cause problems. Or maybe it would prune places in the world that are overwhelmingly polluting, like Third World countries, maybe decide that they're not very necessary, particularly if we use computers or AI or some sort of robotics to do human labor.
2:36:23Joe RoganAnd then you have these areas where human beings are doing this labor and they're polluting. And there's all sorts of issues that come about because of that. You say, well, we just eliminate those people.
2:36:34Joe RoganWe eliminate that issue, and then we have 30% less garbage in the ocean. And then it makes this call.
2:36:41Elon MuskYeah, yeah. It's something we should be concerned about. And I actually want me to go. Oh, shit. I. Sorry, I need to go.
2:36:52Joe RoganShould we wrap it up?
2:36:53Elon MuskYeah, because I. I have to go to the airport. I have to fly. I'm flying to London.
2:36:58Joe RoganYeah. You're explaining that.
2:37:05Elon MuskYeah, just for AI Safety. AI Safety conference in London. So, yeah, I'm leaving in about an hour and a half.
2:37:15Joe RoganWhat do you hope to get out of this conference?
2:37:18Elon MuskLike, Well,
2:37:33Elon MuskI don't know. I mean, I'm just generally concerned about AI safety. But it's like, what should we do about it?
2:37:47Elon MuskI don't know. Have some kind of regulatory oversight of some kind. It's like, you can't just go build a nuclear bomb in your backyard. That's against the law. And you'll get thrown in prison if you do that.
2:38:01Joe RoganHow much of a concern is it?
2:38:02Elon MuskMaybe more dangerous than a nuclear bomb. Really? Yes.
2:38:08Joe RoganHow much of a concern is it if another country develops it before us?
2:38:19Elon MuskI don't know if we should just be concerned about AI being anti human. That's sort of the thing that matters. So potentially I'm saying it's like a genie letting a genie out of a bottle.
2:38:39Elon MuskYou know, it's sort of like a magic genie that can make wishes come true. Except usually when they tell those stories, that doesn't end well for the person who let the genie out of the bottle.
2:38:51Joe RoganRight. Do you think we're creating a life form?
2:39:00Elon MuskYeah, I mean, it's something that is indistinguishable from intelligence and intelligence life form, certainly.
2:39:06Joe RoganI keep coming up against this idea. I keep banging it in my head that we're some sort of an electronic caterpillar that's creating a cocoon, and we don't even realize what we're doing, and we're about to give birth to some technological butterfly.
2:39:23Elon MuskYeah.
2:39:32Elon MuskYeah. Well, I think that's. We're on the cusp of an artificial intelligence revolution. And, you know, for the longest time or for a very long time, we've been the smartest creatures on Earth.
2:39:50Elon MuskThat's been our defining characteristic. I mean, speaking of martial arts, I mean, I don't think anyone should challenge a silverback gorilla to a fight. Even if you're very good at martial arts, that thing's going to kill you.
2:40:07Elon MuskIt literally walks on its fists. Those fists meet your face, it's game over. So we're not stronger than a gorilla. We're not faster than other animals. We're smarter. Now, what happens when there's something way smarter than us?
2:40:32Elon MuskWhere does it go?
2:40:33Joe RoganIt's a good question.
2:40:34Elon MuskYeah.
2:40:36Joe RoganWell, listen, go talk to those people. Go school them, and I hope something good comes out of it. And thank you for your time. Appreciate you coming in here.
2:40:45Joe RoganIt's been fun.
2:40:46Elon MuskGood to see you.
2:40:46Joe RoganAlways good to see you. Thank you. Thanks for everything, man. Thanks for buying Twitter, too. You're welcome. Really.
2:40:51Elon MuskIt means, you know, that is aspirationally a force for good.
2:40:56Joe RoganI think at the very least, it stopped a lot of bad.
2:40:58Elon MuskYeah.
2:41:00Joe RoganAll right, bye, everybody.
2:41:01Elon MuskAll right.