Interview with WELT
Transcript
0:31Welt InterviewerIn 2017 you said the third world war will be a war with or about AI. Now we have a very conventional war. Can AI help?
0:43Elon MuskOne of the reasons for World War 3 would be if one country has or one place has advanced AI technology and other powers wanted, or they're worried about some country gaining advanced AI that would would give them a strong advantage in war, then they may be tempted to attack before the country that is developing the strong AI has that for use in weapons technology.
1:16Welt InterviewerRussia said that they are going to stop the delivery of rocket engines. Is that for SpaceX a threat or an opportunity?
1:26Elon MuskWell, SpaceX, we design and manufacture our own rocket engines, so we do not rely on any Russian components at all.
1:35Welt InterviewerFor the United States of America, it is dangerous or.
1:40Elon MuskWell, Boeing and Lockheed have historically relied on the Russian RD180 engine, which I should say, to be fair, is a great engine. They are hoping to move away from that in the future with engines from blue origin, but those engines are not yet ready for flight.
2:03Elon MuskThere is also the Antares vehicle which uses the RD181. I believe they will not be able to fly as a result.
2:14Welt InterviewerWith all your knowledge and products services, you are almost a strategic weapon in modern warfare. How do you see your role in that context? Ukraine shows that there are opportunities that you needed.
2:34Elon MuskWell, I certainly hope that SpaceX and Tesla do not are not forced to develop any kind of weapons technology. Obviously we would only do such a thing if it was the last resort.
2:48Welt InterviewerI mean it more in the metaphorical sense, not that you produce weapons, but that you are that your knowledge can be used in order to make a difference in conventional warfare or in the warfare of the future, which is AI.
3:03Elon MuskI think I can be helpful in conflicts,
3:10Elon MuskYeah. I mean, I try to take the set of actions that are most likely to improve the probability that the future will be good. And so obviously sometimes I make mistakes in this regard.
3:26Elon MuskSo it's not like I always get it right, but I aspire to get it right. And so whatever I think is most likely to ensure that the future is good for all of humanity, that's the actions that I will take.
3:51Welt InterviewerA couple of months ago we had an exchange about Ernst Junior's famous Storm of Steel. You were very fascinated by that book which has been published roughly 100 years ago, about Junger's experiences in the First World War.
4:08Welt InterviewerWhy is that book so important for you?
4:10Elon MuskWell, I read a lot of books and for some reason I'm like fascinated by war and history in general. I thought Jung's book was an excellent firsthand account of World War I.
4:24Elon MuskAnd I mean, it certainly, I think a lesson taken from that book is we don't ever want to do that again.
4:33Welt InterviewerThat's interesting, that. Yes.
4:34Elon MuskYeah, that's good.
4:35Welt InterviewerThat's good idea saying that, because there's a big controversy around that book, and some people are saying this is glorifying war.
4:42Elon MuskYeah, it's definitely not.
4:43Welt InterviewerAnd other people are saying it is a warning for not having a war ever again. So you're clearly in the second camp.
4:53Elon MuskWell, I think those who don't like Jungas book are basically, you know, just because it's not 100% anti war in the most extreme way, then that therefore it's bad.
5:05Welt InterviewerNo, it's like a report. It's just neither.
5:08Elon MuskYeah, he's just saying positive nor negative.
5:10Welt InterviewerIt's just describing what happened in a terrible way.
5:13Elon MuskYes. I mean, nobody's reading. Nobody's reading that book and say, I want to be. I want to do that. That sounds. I mean, he makes it very clear it's a very terrible situation.
5:24Elon MuskBut he also said, like, it's not like, there's no good that comes out of even a terrible situation. There's some good that comes out of it, but it's overwhelmingly bad.
5:33Elon MuskIt's just really interesting to read about history. I mean, learn the lessons of history such that we do not repeat the mistakes of the past.
5:45Welt InterviewerWell, we know that saying history doesn't repeat, but it rhymes. And we see a rhyme these days back to the bigger strategic picture. I mean, the terrible actions of Putin are to a certain degree, also a result of strategic mistakes that Europe, particularly Germany, has made.
6:03Welt InterviewerThe dropout of nuclear energy.
6:04Elon MuskActually, can I just say, I think it's very important that Germany not shut down its nuclear power stations. I think this is extremely crazy.
6:11Welt InterviewerI just wanted to ask a question on that, because if we. If we really want to reduce Putin's power and Europeans and Germany's dependence on Russian energy, this works only through decarbonization.
6:23Welt InterviewerSo my question to you is, should we have even more nuclear energy in order to get faster independence from Putin and to resolve the climate issues?
6:33Elon MuskI want to be super clear my opinion. Germany should not only not shut down the nuclear power plants, it should reopen the ones that shut down, and those are the fastest ones to restart.
6:45Elon MuskIt's crazy to shut down nuclear power plants now, especially, like, if you're in a place where there's not natural disasters. So, like, if you're maybe somewhere where there's Severe earthquakes or tsunamis or something like that.
6:59Elon MuskIt's more of a question mark. I mean, maybe, but if there's not like massive natural disaster risk which Germany does not have, then there's really no danger with the nuclear power plants and
7:13Welt Intervieweryou don't see any safer alternatives that could have a similar effect. So solar and wind is not going to do it. Do we have any other ideas in mind about future energy policy?
7:25Elon MuskI think long term most of civilization's energy is going to come from solar and then you need to store it with a battery because obviously the sun only shines during the day and sometimes it's very cloudy.
7:40Elon MuskSo you need solar. Batteries will be the main long term way that civilization is powered. But between now and then we need to maintain nuclear. I can't emphasize enough.
7:54Elon MuskPlease do not shut down the nuclear power plants and please reopen the ones that have been chat. This is total madness to shut them down. I want to be clear.
8:03Elon MuskTotal madness.
8:05Welt InterviewerLet's see whether your very clear words are hurt in Europe as consequences in Germany.
8:10Elon MuskI'm trying to use the strongest words. I would say this is a national security risk. It's not like, listen, playtime is over, okay? Obviously playtime is over. It's a national security risk to shut these things down.
8:23Welt InterviewerIt's another bitter lesson of that war. It is not only an issue with regard to climate, it is very much an issue.
8:31Elon MuskIt's a national security risk and it's a climate issue, you know, replacing. I think people don't understand, like, you know, coal power plants, because of their emissions, they cause a certain number of deaths every year.
8:44Elon MuskFar more dangerous than nuclear power plants.
8:49Welt InterviewerDo you have any other, let's say, unconventional ideas to deal with the challenge of climate change? Is it possible through the reduction of consumption and through new forms of energy to resolve it completely without China being completely aligned?
9:05Welt InterviewerOr should we have a different way to look at it? Some people are saying perhaps instead of just trying to avoid a warmer climate, we should focus on how to live with a warmer climate and adapt to that.
9:16Welt InterviewerIs that an option?
9:18Elon MuskI think we just want to take the set of actions that accelerate the transition to a sustainable energy economy. And that sustainable energy economy is going to be, like I said, primarily solar.
9:29Elon MuskWith wind you absolutely need stationary storage batteries because of the intermittency of solar and wind. And then there will also be hydroelectric, geothermal, nuclear. These are all fine. But we want to just move as quickly as we can to a sort of solar electric economy.
9:56Elon MuskSo, you know, sometimes people say, oh well, it's cloudy or something, you know, what about solar? And it's like, do plants grow? They're a solar powered chemical reaction. If plants grow, you have solar power, obviously.
10:11Elon MuskHow do you think they grow? I think we just want to try to move there as quickly as possible. And I do want to emphasize that while I think solar will be the main source of energy, it won't be everything.
10:28Elon MuskLike I said, there'll be nuclear, hydroelectric, geothermal, wind. And the faster we get there, the better for the world. We're kind of running this climate experiment, but it's an experiment where we know that that's pointless because we know ultimately we will run out of coal and oil and gas.
10:50Elon MuskThis is not going to last forever. And so we have to transition to something that is long term in any case because we'll run out of hydrocarbons to burn.
11:01Elon MuskSo then let's just not run the experiment. But I'm much less of a climate alarmist than people might think. Although of course my words are taken sometimes, always amplified.
11:13Welt InterviewerBut how is it going to look like in 15 years? Better than today?
11:17Elon MuskMuch better than today from a sustainable energy standpoint? Much better, yeah, much better.
11:23Welt InterviewerSo your bet is we are going to solve the climate issue?
11:26Elon MuskYes, absolutely, we will solve the climate issue. It's just a question of when. And I'd say like, the fundamental good of Tesla should be thought of as by how many years did Tesla accelerate the sustainable energy revolution?
11:40Elon MuskThat's the fundamental historic good of Tesla. Not whether it would occur, it would occur anyway, but by how many years did can Tesla accelerate that transition?
11:50Welt InterviewerYou once told me about population, that the decrease of reproduction rate, birth rate is one of the most underestimated problems of our times. Can you explain?
12:05Elon MuskYeah. So most people in the world are operating under the false impression that there are too many people. This is not true. Earth could maintain a population many times the current level.
12:21Elon MuskAnd the birth rate has been dropping like crazy. So and unfortunately, like we have these like ridiculous population estimates from the UN that need to be updated because they just don't make any sense.
12:42Elon MuskReally. You can just look at say, what was the birth rate last year, how many kids were born, Multiply that by the life expectancy and say, okay, that's how many people will be alive in the future.
12:56Elon MuskAnd then say, is the trend for growth rate positive or negative? It's negative. So that's the best case. Unless something changes with the birth rate. I mean, you can look at, take Japan for example.
13:08Elon MuskI think I'm just going off memory here, but I think the population is roughly 110 million. But last year, if you take the number of children born times the life expectancy, which is 85 years, it's very impressive life expectancy.
13:25Elon MuskThen Japan would have, I think around 68 million people, roughly half of the current population. That does not tell the full story because those that you would have an upside down demographic permit.
13:40Elon MuskYou already have an upside down demographic pyramid where, you know, a lot of old people, very few young people and.
13:51Elon MuskYou know. So how is this. That upside down demographic permit is unstable.
13:54Welt InterviewerThat's also here why we need alternatives. You have recently presented Optimus human robot and you shared great expectations what that could do for the world.
14:08Elon MuskYeah.
14:09Welt InterviewerCould you explain a little bit your motivation? I assume it's not only about the first visit to Mars that could be done by Optimus. It is more than that, a game changer in AI.
14:22Welt InterviewerCould you share a little bit your, your vision?
14:28Elon MuskYeah, I mean, with respect to AI and robotics, I always approach these things with some trepidation because I certainly do not want to be play a hand in anything that could potentially be harmful to humanity.
14:44Elon MuskNow, humanoid robots, they're clearly happening. You look at like Boston Dynamics, their demonstrations are better every year. So there will be humanoid robots. I mean, the rate of advancement of AI is very rapid.
14:57Elon MuskEven if Tesla stopped doing AI that, I think we're still on a track to develop artificial general intelligence. Many intelligence smarter than the smartest human.
15:10Welt InterviewerConcretely, Optimus is going to be used in Tesla factories. That's one of the use cases. But what is the broader use case beyond Tesla?
15:18Elon MuskYeah, I mean, Optimus is a general purpose sort of worker droid. So the initial roles for Optimus would be in work that is repetitive, boring, dangerous, that kind of thing.
15:37Elon MuskBasically work that people don't want to do unless they're paid to do it.
15:41Welt InterviewerWhy has Optimus 2 legs? Just because looks like a human being or is it more practical? I thought four legs are better.
15:51Elon MuskFour legs good, two legs bad. It reminds me of oil. Humanity has designed the world to interact with a bipedal humanoid with two arms and ten fingers. So if you want to have a robot fit in and be able to do things that humans can do, it must be of roughly the same size and shape and capability.
16:13Welt InterviewerThe prototype is going to be ready by the end of this year. When is it a product that can be mass marketed, mass produced?
16:21Elon MuskThat's the hard part.
16:27Elon MuskI don't know. I think we'll have something pretty good at the prototype. Level this year, and it might be ready for at least moderate volume production towards the end of next year.
16:43Welt InterviewerDo you think that Optimus is going to play a role in our daily life, helping us in the household and things like that?
16:49Elon MuskI think it probably would.
16:52Welt InterviewerThanks.
16:52Elon MuskSo it's like I said, general purpose humanoid. Yeah.
16:57Welt InterviewerSo you said the potential is bigger than the potential of Tesla. If that's true.
17:03Elon MuskOr cars. Yeah.
17:04Welt InterviewerThen it must be really a mass market product.
17:08Elon MuskYeah, sure. Well, I mean, say, like, what is an economy? Like what? People get confused sometimes. They think an economy is money. Money is a database for exchange of goods and services and for time shifting the exchange of goods and services.
17:26Elon MuskMoney is a database. Money doesn't have power in and of itself. You can run the thought experiment. If you're trapped on a remote island, shipwrecked on an island, and you've got a trillion dollars in a Swiss bank account, it's worthless.
17:42Elon MuskYou'd rather have a can of soup. So, you know, all the bitcoin in the world, you're still going to starve. So the actual economy is goods and services. So then what limits the output of goods and services?
18:00Elon MuskThat limiter is labor. Even capital is distilled labor. But the limiting factor for the economy is labor. And so if you address the limiting factor for the economy, then it's not clear that an economy in a traditional sense has any meaning anymore, because you have no constraint on goods and services.
18:23Elon MuskThe only things that will be missing are things that have artificial scarcity, so that where we decide to make it scarce, like a particular piece of art or a particular home in this exact location or something like that, you know, but for.
18:40Elon MuskBut there will be no shortage of goods and services.
18:43Welt InterviewerBut in a way, Optimus is also an answer to the problem of drop in birth rates. If we have not enough human people, we need more bots to get the work done.
18:58Elon MuskOptimus will be helpful with respect to dropping birth rates. But I mean, like I said, you have to say, like, if these things continue, then what happens? Humanity dies out?
19:07Elon MuskIs that what we want?
19:08Welt InterviewerOr step by step, replaced by artificial intelligence human beings? That Neuralink is empowering.
19:19Elon MuskWell, yeah, I mean, Neuralink in the short term, Neuralink is just about solving brain injuries and spinal injuries and that kind of thing. So to be clear, for many years, neuralink's products will just be helpful to someone who has lost the use of their arms or arms and legs, or who has just a traumatic brain injury of some kind.
19:45Elon MuskThat's what neuralink will be useful for many years.
19:48Welt InterviewerBut in our last conversation you said that neuralink is among all your projects, for you the most important one. Is that still true?
19:58Elon MuskI said it could be. I wouldn't say for sure it is the most important, but it could be the most important in that there is a long term mitigation to artificial intelligence, which is that we could effectively merge with artificial intelligence by.
20:23Elon MuskBy improving the speed of interaction between our cortex and our tertiary layer, which is already silicon. Basically, we're already a sort of a three level intelligence creature. The base level is the limbic system, the sort of animal brain or reptile brain.
20:44Elon MuskEssentially the sort of fundamental, you know. Yeah, the animal or reptile brain. And then there's the cortex, which. The cortex by the way, is largely in service to the, the reptile brain.
21:00Welt InterviewerCould you imagine that one day we would be able to download our human brain capacity into a optimus?
21:09Elon MuskYes, I think that is, I'm not saying this is. I think it is possible. I think to do that. It is possible.
21:17Welt InterviewerWhich would be a different way of eternal life because we would also download our personalities into a body.
21:28Elon MuskYes, we could download the things that we believe make ourselves unique. Now, of course, if you're not in a body anymore, that there's definitely going to be some difference there, you know, so.
21:40Elon MuskBut as far as preserving our memories, our personality, if you will, I think we could do that.
21:49Welt InterviewerThe moment of singularity that Ray Kurzweil has I think predicted for 25 is approaching fast. Do you think the timeline is still realistic?
21:59Elon MuskWell, I see this as not. I'm not sure this is a singularity. Meaning like I'm not sure this is a very sharp boundary. I mean, already there's so much compute that we outsource.
22:13Elon MuskOur memories are stored in our phones and computers with the pictures and video. Computers and phones amplify our ability to communicate, enabling us to do things that would have been considered magical.
22:29Elon MuskAnd had you burned at the stake maybe 300 years ago. And you can have two people to have a video call basically for free from two parts of the world on opposite sides of the world.
22:47Elon MuskIt's amazing. So we've already amplified our human brains massively with computers. And I think an interesting ratio to roughly calculate would be the amount of compute that is digital divided by the amount of compute that is biological.
23:10Elon MuskAnd how does that ratio change over time? And with there's so much digital compute happening so fast that that ratio is increasing rapidly.
23:23Welt InterviewerTalking about speed, you have the vision that one day starship could be able to get from A to B in 30 minutes all around the globe. Is that correct?
23:37Welt InterviewerAnd if so, what would the time frame for this vision? It's like a global super taxi. You can just go from, I mean, it's San Francisco to Nairobi.
23:51Elon MuskYeah, I mean, the landing will be loud, so you'd want to probably be connecting, you know, cities that are next to oceans or seas such that you can land maybe, I don't know, far enough offshore that the landing noise is not disturbing to people.
24:13Welt InterviewerBut coast to coast, that would be a realistic.
24:15Elon MuskAbsolutely, yeah, yeah. It's like an icbm, but change the option package from nuclear to landing there. Delete the nuke ad landing.
24:26Welt InterviewerElon, you have solved so many problems of mankind and presented so many solutions. I'm surprised that one topic seems not to be too fascinating for you, and that is the project of longevity and increased lifespan significantly.
24:44Welt InterviewerWhy are you not passionate about that? You're not personally interested in living longer.
25:04Elon MuskI mean, I don't think we should try to have people live for very long time, for a very long time. It would cause ossification of society. Because the truth is most people don't change their mind, they just die.
25:19Elon MuskAnd so if they don't die, they will be stuck with old ideas and they won't. Society won't advance. I think we already have quite a serious issue with the gerontocracy, where the leaders of so many countries are extremely old.
25:38Elon MuskLook, I mean, in the US it's, you know, very, very ancient leadership and it's just impossible to stay in touch with the people if you're, you know, at the, you know, if you're like many generations older than them.
25:58Elon MuskAnd the founders in the US they put minimum ages for political office, but they did not put maximum ages because they did not expect that people would be living so long.
26:08Elon MuskBut they should have because you really want, in order for a democracy to function well, the leaders must be reasonably in touch with the bulk of the population. And if you're too young or too old, you can't say that you would be in touch.
26:23Welt InterviewerIs there a kind of ideal age and how old would you like to get?
26:28Elon MuskWell, I think for political leadership, I think you want to be, I don't know, within, ideally within 10 or at least 20 years of the average age of the population.
26:40Elon MuskThis doesn't sound too crazy. So, you know, for me, I don't know. I mean, I certainly would like to maintain health for a longer period of period of time, but I'm not afraid of dying.
27:00Elon MuskI Think it will come as a relief.
27:04Welt InterviewerSo although you may not be able to see the vision of SpaceX come true in your life.
27:13Elon MuskWell, I'd like to live long enough
27:15Welt Interviewerto see that being at a net worth of 230 billion, roughly being perceived as the richest person on earth.
27:24Elon MuskWell, I think Putin is significantly richer than me.
27:28Welt InterviewerYou really do?
27:28Elon MuskYeah. Yes. Well, I, I mean, I can't go invade countries and stuff, I believe. I mean, there's like some old quote from. Was it, was it Crassus or. I think that you, you're not really rich unless you can afford a legion.
27:46Welt InterviewerDo you know, do you know John Law?
27:50Elon MuskI don't know.
27:51Welt InterviewerJohn Law used to be the richest person on Earth 300 years ago.
27:55Elon MuskOkay.
27:56Welt InterviewerHe was a, a poker player, a gambler on the farm, he was the biggest art collector on earth. So a lot of superlatives.
28:03Elon MuskWow.
28:04Welt InterviewerIn the end, he went bankrupt. What?
28:07Elon MuskIt's a pretty far to fall.
28:10Welt InterviewerDid you ever thought about that option that something could go wrong and that you could one day lose everything?
28:16Elon MuskI mean, there's been many times where I expected to lose everything. Not. You know, I mean, who starts a car company and a rocket company expecting them to succeed?
28:26Elon MuskCertainly not me. I thought they both had less than a 10% chance of success. And frankly, I wasn't wrong in that in 2008 we had the third failure of SpaceX.
28:36Elon MuskAnd if the fourth launch had failed, SpaceX would be dead. In 2008 we had no money for a fifth launch. And for Tesla, Tesla's got been on the verge of bankruptcy many times and we closed the last the financing round in 2008 because remember, at the end of 2008, General Motors and Chrysler were going bankrupt and Ford was almost bankrupt.
28:59Elon MuskSo imagine trying to raise money for an electric car startup while General Motors is going bankrupt. People were angry that I even asked, but we were able to just barely raise enough money to squeak by and close the financing round for Tesla on the last hour of the last day that it was possible in Christmas Eve 2008.
29:23Elon MuskAnd if we had not closed that financing round, then it would gone bankrupt two days after Christmas.
29:28Welt InterviewerSo you know what you're talking about? Yes, this John Law.
29:31Elon MuskIf I go bankrupt, fine, whatever, I don't care.
29:34Welt InterviewerJohn Law got famous with a sentence. L', economie, c' est moi. The economy is me.
29:42Elon MuskThis guy French or English?
29:43Welt InterviewerScottish.
29:43Elon MuskHe said, yeah, but
29:47Welt Interviewerhe worked in France and his main language then was France. So the question is, do you see any danger that one day not Only big platforms like Google or Facebook could face much more rigid regulation.
30:06Welt InterviewerBut that Elon Musk could be regulated
30:08Elon Muskbecause of regulators actually as it is, you know, SpaceX and Tesla are regulated.
30:16Welt InterviewerNo, but I mean that there could be a discussion that it's just too much in too many areas, like I
30:24Elon Muskhave too much power personally or something.
30:26Welt InterviewerWell, I mean if you build in many sectors that are absolutely crucial to society, very dominant, see on Mars, suckers.
30:34Elon MuskJust kidding. That's the option.
30:39Welt InterviewerSo one way to avoid that is to be a good citizen. And you are, and you have your own foundation. Could you tell us a little bit about your projects, what your foundation is going to do in the future, what your priorities are to donate money and to improve the world beyond your business activities?
30:59Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I do want to emphasize that SpaceX and Tesla are fundamentally intended to improve the probability that the future is good. So this will do more. They will do more than anything I do from a charitable standpoint in terms of usefulness to humanity.
31:14Elon MuskI mean Tesla is about accelerating sustainable energy, Obviously that's important. SpaceX is about making life multi planetary and of course providing global Internet through starlink. These are fundamental goods.
31:27Elon MuskThe good of those companies will far exceed anything that I do from a charitable standpoint. And I have to say it is very difficult to give away money effectively if you care about the money actually doing good and not merely the perception of doing good.
31:43Welt InterviewerBut do you see any concrete project that you would like to focus on, like for example, food supply starvation as a big topic or anything else that comes to your mind for your foundation activities?
31:57Elon MuskWell, the, you know, like I said, it's a big struggle to give away money effectively. If you care about, like I said, if you care about the reality of doing good and not the perception of doing good, then it is very hard to give away money effectively.
32:15Elon MuskAnd I care about the reality, perception be damned. So there's obviously environmental causes, there's education, especially science and engineering education, pediatric health care.
32:45Elon MuskYou know, hunger these days is more of a political and logistics problem than it is not having enough food. There's a lot of food. In fact, you know, in the US, in many, many countries, the issue is more obesity than it is hunger.
33:03Elon MuskSo.
33:11Elon MuskBut I always am looking for ways to give away money that are effective. Like what do you think I should do?
33:25Welt InterviewerYou know what heroes of underrated heroes are the people who are doing a service in hospitals, helping elderly people. And I think they don't have a lobby.
33:37Elon MuskOkay.
33:38Welt InterviewerSo I think to do something for them because we all need them if we are in trouble.
33:43Elon MuskSure.
33:46Welt InterviewerThink about it. If you Google Elon Musk, I think you have 156 million search results.
33:53Elon MuskReally?
33:54Welt Interviewer76 million Twitter followers. You are definitely one of the most popular people on Earth. Is popularity a pleasure or a liability for you?
34:05Elon MuskWell, it makes it difficult to go buy a coffee at the corner store, that's for sure. So it's hard to go around places. You know, I used to be able to just, you know, go to the store or walk down the street and now it's quite difficult to do that.
34:24Welt InterviewerIt reminds me a bit of the former chancellor of Germany, Helmut Kohl, who once told me, you cannot imagine how terrible it is to go to a restaurant. Everybody recognizes you, comes to your table, asks you for an autograph that's turned terrible.
34:38Welt InterviewerThere is only one thing in life that is worse. If nobody comes to your table anymore.
34:44Elon MuskI suppose so. Well, I would. I really. It's hard for me to go to a restaurant, so. And if I do, it's I just try to find a corner table and that's kind of dimly lit or something where I can sort of stay out of the way.
35:05Welt InterviewerBut you cannot turn around. Is there anything that you most urgently want to achieve?
35:19Elon MuskWell, I mean the whole, I mean the pressing items in the short term are completing full self driving so that we're full self driving operating at a substantially safer level than humans.
35:38Elon MuskBasically it comes down to solving the problem of real world AI that consumes a lot of my mind. And then getting starship to work not just to get to orbit, but to achieve full and rapid reusability, which is really the holy grail of rocketry that is necessary for humanity to become a multi planet species.
36:00Welt InterviewerIs there anything that you would, and
36:02Elon Muskdon't think those things might happen this year.
36:04Welt InterviewerIs there anything that you really would like to achieve which you think is going to be impossible?
36:15Elon MuskImpossible is a strong word. But you don't like that word. Well, it's just, it's a strong word. I, I mean I sort of approach things from a physics standpoint and the word impossible is more or less banned in physics.
36:39Elon MuskI'm really worried about this birthrate thing that's been troubling me for many years.
36:50Elon MuskBecause I just don't see it turning around. You know, every year it's worse and I drive my friends crazy by.
36:57Welt InterviewerPerhaps that's a project for your foundation.
36:59Elon MuskSure. Okay.
37:01Welt InterviewerYou are a multi talent person. Is there any field of total incompetence?
37:06Elon MuskI'm terrible at Dancing.
37:09Welt InterviewerAlthough you like techno music so much.
37:11Elon MuskYeah, but the nice thing about techno is you can don't have to be able to dance very well. You can just jump around basically.
37:19Welt InterviewerWalter Isaacson is planning a biography and he has written a biography on Einstein, on Steve Jobs, on Benjamin Franklin and Leonardo da Vinci. Among the four, with whom would you like to meet and have a glass of wine?
37:41Elon MuskWell, I mean it would be an honor to meet any of them even for a minute.
37:50Elon MuskI think, I think Ben Franklin would be the most fun at dinner.
37:55Welt InterviewerAnd who is the one where you would say I'm closest to him? Would it be Leonardo da Vinci?
38:04Elon MuskI think I'm.
38:05Welt InterviewerYou're a renaissance.
38:06Elon MuskI think I'm pretty different from those people, you know, everyone there. It might actually be Ben Franklin, frankly. He did a lot of science and engineering stuff. I don't know.
38:19Elon MuskBut.
38:24Elon MuskYou know, it's funny, Da Vinci thought of himself first and foremost as an engineer and in his like application, like when he applied for for his position.
38:41Elon MuskThat enabled him to create a lot of the art. His application was all about his engineering stuff. And then at the end and all side is some art. It was just funny that Da Vinci really thought of himself as an engineer and for the time he was pretty impressive.
39:03Welt InterviewerThe German author Thomas Mann once said the purpose of life to be an engineer in the interest of progress of mankind.
39:14Elon MuskSure.
39:15Welt InterviewerIs that a good definition for your own ambitions?
39:17Elon MuskYeah, I think that is a good definition.
39:18Welt InterviewerIs freedom for you the most important value of the society?
39:22Elon MuskNo, I think not being dead is, I mean like
39:28Welt Interviewerwhat would that do with a society if everybody just cares about that?
39:31Elon MuskNo, I'm just saying there's a Maslow's hierarchy, you know, of like, you know, these days we, you know, back in the old days, I mean, you know a good year would be a year where not that many people died of hunger, you know, plague, not that many people froze to death, not that many people were killed by the neighboring tribe.
39:54Elon MuskBack in the old days it was like hey, Ronnie lost 5% last year. That was great. You know, now those things are really not concerns anywhere near they would like level of what they would be in the past.
40:09Welt InterviewerWhat did Covid do to freedom in our society?
40:15Elon MuskWell, I think freedom took what was severely restricted with COVID Do you think
40:20Welt Interviewerit's a long term effect? Do you think we are going back to old norms?
40:25Elon MuskWell, the jury's out on that front, you know.
40:28Welt InterviewerAre you worried?
40:30Elon MuskYeah, I think that. I think we should roll back government power. That was massively increased in the COVID times. You know, I think we're at the this point, the tail end of it, or it's no longer, you know, a major concern.
40:53Elon MuskAnd so we need to actively roll back the powers of government that were
40:56Welt Interviewercreated during COVID You once said on Mars, if there's human life, there should be direct democracy.
41:03Elon MuskYes, I think direct democracy is less susceptible to corruption than representative democracy. I mean, the other recommendations that I'd like to like, Any laws need to be short enough that everyone can read them as well.
41:21Elon MuskAnd there should be some. It should be easier to get rid of a law than make one.
41:27Welt InterviewerDo you see any positive effects in the COVID pandemic?
41:32Elon MuskI think there are many, many silver linings. The advancement of synthetic RNA was accelerated
41:45Welt Interviewersignificantly because of COVID and it's going to help with cancer, allergies, bacteria, diseases.
41:54Elon MuskYes. I mean, synthetic RNA is revolutionary medicine that most people are not aware of just how much of a revolution that is. I would say this is like medicine going from analog to digital.
42:06Welt InterviewerAnd that could be the big accelerator here, like during the plague, which also was an accelerator of progress in society and medical progress. Big times.
42:18Elon MuskYes. It's actually interesting, you know, English was suppressed in England for quite a long time because William the Conqueror was Norman French. So it wasn't even French French. It was like a different version of French, but that was the official language.
42:34Elon MuskAnd the courts were only in French for hundreds of years. In England, if you wanted to go to court, you had to either be able to speak Norman French or hire someone who could.
42:47Elon MuskAnd then actually, the plague got so bad that so many lawyers died in the plague that they didn't have enough people who could speak French for the courts. So they said, okay, we have to have the courts in English because there aren't enough people alive who can speak known French.
43:02Welt InterviewerSo indirectly, the plague was a trigger of democratization of society.
43:06Elon MuskI mean, yeah, I mean, it was. It actually did, I think, for society as a whole, improve things, at least based on my observation of things. In England, the people were actually able to speak English in courts because they had no other choice.
43:26Elon MuskAnd a lot of other things were improved. There was a labor shortage because of the plague. And so that gave. Put a lot more power in the hands of laborers and gave them more freedom of action.
43:44Welt InterviewerElon, I think we have to come to an end. But just a couple of very brief questions. What is your biggest fear?
43:53Elon MuskWell, I think there's. You have to say, like, what are the existential threats that humanity Faces. We spent a lot of time talking about the birth rate thing, that that might be the biggest single threat to the future of human civilization.
44:09Elon MuskThen there's artificial intelligence gone wrong is a big concern. I think religious extremism is a concern.
44:25Welt InterviewerWhat is your biggest hope?
44:34Elon MuskMy biggest hope is that humanity creates a self sustaining city on Mars.
44:41Welt InterviewerYou said that you cannot be and don't want to be alone. I very much share that feeling.
44:48Elon MuskYeah.
44:49Welt InterviewerWhere does it come from?
44:51Elon MuskI think it's just a natural human reaction. I mean most people don't.
44:55Welt InterviewerA lot of people are happy if
44:56Elon Muskthey are alone, really. I think most people are not happy being alone.
45:09Welt InterviewerDo you feel lonely?
45:12Elon MuskI mean there are times when I feel lonely, yes. But I mean, I think it's pretty basic. Like if I'm say, working on the starship rocket down at, you know, South Texas and I'm just staying in my little house by myself.
45:27Elon MuskEspecially if I forget my dog, you know, if my dog is not with me, then then I feel quite lonely because I'm just in a little house by myself with not even a dog.
45:40Welt InterviewerLast question. You have once said if I'm not in love, I cannot be happy. Are you happy at the moment?
45:55Elon MuskI think there's degrees of love, but certainly for one to be fully happy, I think you have to be happy in work and happy in love. So.
46:13Elon MuskI suppose I'm medium happy. There are degrees of happiness.
46:17Welt InterviewerCan love for projects, for work compensate love among people?
46:26Elon MuskI think love of work, in my experience could at best make one halfway happy.
46:37Welt InterviewerPerhaps that's your biggest hope, to be really in love?
46:43Elon MuskI have been in the past. I try to be as literal as possible. I would be happy if humanity has a self sustaining city on Mars, because then the probable lifespan of humanity is much greater.
47:05Elon MuskYou know, I think we really just got this, you know, consciousness like this little candle of consciousness, like a small light in the void. And we don't want that small candle in a vast darkness to be put out.
47:24Welt InterviewerThank you very much Elon for that conversation.
47:26Elon MuskAll right, thank you,