Joe Rogan Experience #2404 - Elon Musk
Questions on ElonsFAQ asked in this interview (16)
Transcript
0:01Elon MuskJoe Rogan Podcast.
0:03Joe RoganCheck it out.
0:03Elon MuskThe Joe Rogan Experience.
0:06Joe RoganJoin my day Joe Rogan Podcast. By night, all day.
0:12Elon MuskExactly.
0:14Joe RoganEvery morning.
0:15Elon MuskWhat about Jeff Bezos?
0:17Joe RoganDefinitely doing some fast. He looks jacked, right?
0:22Elon MuskYeah, but he's like quick, quick, quick. At age like 50.
0:30Joe RoganAt 50.
0:30Elon MuskAt age 59 than a year, he, he went from pencil neck geek to looking like a miniature. Like the Rock.
0:38Joe RoganYeah, like a little miniature alpha fella.
0:40Elon MuskYeah, like, like his neck got bigger than his head. Yeah, he got big. But then like his earlier pictures, his neck's like a noodle.
0:46Joe RoganI support this activity. I just see him going in this direction, which is fine.
0:50Elon MuskAnd his voice dropped like two octaves.
0:51Joe RoganI want you to move in that direction as well. I think we could achieve this.
0:55Elon MuskI, I, I mean, I should, I
0:56Joe Roganthink we can achieve Gigachad. That's what people called it.
1:02Elon MuskWhere is that guy?
1:03Joe RoganPeople? I don't know where he is.
1:05Elon MuskThat's like a real guy.
1:07Joe RoganThe artist. Yeah, no, Gigachad. Oh, Giga Chad. Yeah. I don't know if that's a real guy. It's hard.
1:12Elon MuskNo, no, it is a real guy.
1:13Joe RoganIt is a real guy.
1:14Elon MuskYeah.
1:14Joe RoganHe's got the crazy jaw and like perfect sculpted hair. Yeah, yeah.
1:18Elon MuskWell, I mean, they may have exaggerated a little bit, but, but no, I think, I think he actually just kind of looked like that in reality. Wow. So like, he's a pretty unique looking individual.
1:30Joe RoganI think we can achieve this. That guy right there, that's a real guy. I always thought that was cgi.
1:37Elon MuskNo, I think one of the, I think the upper right one is not him. That's not that one to the left
1:43Joe Roganof that, like, that's real. No, that's, that's artificial, bro. That's fake. That's got that uncanny valley feel to it, doesn't it?
1:51Elon MuskIt's, it's not impossible.
1:52Joe RoganNo, no, it's not impossible to achieve, but it's not, it's not possible to maintain that kind of leanness.
1:57Elon MuskNo, no. I mean, that's like you're, you're also at that point, you're there, there. He's dehydrating and all sorts of things.
2:04Joe RoganOh, it's based on a real person.
2:05Elon MuskYeah, yeah, based on.
2:06Joe RoganRight. But it's not a real person.
2:08Elon MuskWhat does he really look like?
2:09Joe RoganThose images, I think, are bullshit. Some of them are. Is that real? Okay, that real. That looks real. Those are really. Jack Bodybuilder. Yeah, yeah, that looks real. Like, that's achievable.
2:20Joe RoganBut there's a few of those images where you're just like, what's going on here?
2:24Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Well, I mean, you see it is that.
2:30Joe RoganThat's the real dude.
2:31Elon MuskWell, there's like that. That Icelandic dude who's Thor.
2:34Joe RoganOh, yeah, the guy who jumps in the frozen lakes and shit.
2:37Elon MuskWell, the guy who played the mountain.
2:39Joe RoganOh, that guy.
2:40Elon MuskThat is. That is like a. That. That is like a mutant, strong human.
2:44Joe RoganYes.
2:45Elon MuskYeah, like he would be in like the X Men or something.
2:47Joe RoganYou know, we were hanging out.
2:49Elon MuskHe's just like, not like, you know that. Have you seen that meme tent and tent bag?
2:55Joe RoganNo.
2:56Elon MuskYou know how like, it's like, it's really hard to get the tent in there.
2:59Joe RoganOh, right, right.
3:05Elon MuskThat's true. There's a picture of, of him and his girlfriend with.
3:12Elon MuskI don't know how it gets in there. You know, it's like, it seems too small.
3:15Joe RoganBut I met Brian Shaw. Brian Shaw is like the world's most powerful man. And he's almost 7ft tall. He's 400 pounds and his. His bone density is 1 in 500 million people.
3:31Joe RoganSo there's one. It's like there's like maybe 16 people. He's an enormous human being.
3:37Elon MuskOkay.
3:38Joe RoganLike a legitimate giant. Just like that guy. Yeah, but we met him. He was hanging out with us in the green room of the mothership. It's like, okay, if this is like David and Goliath days, like.
3:47Joe RoganYeah, this is an actual giant. Like the giant of the Bible.
3:50Elon MuskOnce in a while they get a super giant person.
3:51Joe RoganThis is a real, A real one. Like not a tall, skinny basketball player. Yeah, yeah, like a 7 foot, 400 pound power lifter.
3:58Elon MuskLike you don't want to especially.
4:00Joe RoganThat's the guy. See, there's a photo of him standing next to like a regular human. There it is. Yeah, that's him right there.
4:06Elon MuskLike, there's like, there's like one of him with. Next to. Standing next to Arnold and stuff. Yeah, it's where everyone, everyone just looks tiny. I mean, I think he's pretty cool dude, actually.
4:15Joe RoganOh, Brian's very cool. Very smart, too. Unusual. You know, you expect anybody to be that big. It's got to be a moron.
4:21Elon MuskYeah, no, yeah, there's Andre the Giant who was awesome. Yeah, he was great in Princess Bride.
4:28Joe RoganNo, he was just awesome, period.
4:30Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.
4:31Joe RoganSo we were talking about this interview with Sam Altman and Tucker, and I was like, we should probably just talk about this on the air. It is one of the craziest interviews I think I've ever seen in my life.
4:43Elon MuskYeah.
4:43Joe RoganWhere Tucker starts bringing up this guy
4:45Elon Muskwho was whistleblower or whatever.
4:48Joe RoganWhistleblower who, you know, committed suicide but doesn't look like it. And he's talking to Sam Altman about this, and Sam Altman was like, are you accusing me? He's like, no, no, no, I'm not.
5:01Joe RoganI'm just saying I think someone killed him.
5:03Elon MuskYeah. Like, and should be investigated.
5:05Joe RoganYeah.
5:07Elon MuskNot just drop the case. It seems like they just dropped the case. Yeah.
5:11Joe RoganYeah.
5:11Elon MuskBut his parents think he was murdered.
5:13Joe RoganYeah.
5:14Elon MuskThe wires to a security camera were cut.
5:17Joe RoganBlood in two rooms.
5:18Elon MuskBlood in two rooms. Someone else's wig was in the room.
5:21Joe RoganSomeone else's wig.
5:22Elon MuskWig.
5:22Joe RoganWig. Yes. Not normal.
5:24Elon MuskNot his wig.
5:25Joe RoganNot normal to have a wig laying around.
5:27Elon MuskYes. And he ordered doordash right before allegedly committing suicide.
5:33Joe RoganYeah.
5:34Elon MuskWhich is. Seems unusual, you know.
5:37Joe RoganYeah.
5:37Elon MuskIt's like, you know, let's. I'm gonna order pizza. On second thoughts, I'll kill myself. It seems like that's a very rapid change in mindset.
5:45Joe RoganIt's very weird. And especially the parents, have they. They don't believe he committed suicide at all.
5:51Elon MuskHas no note or anything.
5:52Joe RoganNo.
5:53Elon MuskYeah.
5:53Joe RoganIt seems pretty fucked up. And, you know, the idea that a whistleblower for an enormous AI company that's worth billions of dollars might get whacked, that's not outside the pale.
6:04Elon MuskI mean, it's straight out of a movie.
6:06Joe RoganRight out of a movie. But right out of a movie is real sometimes.
6:08Elon MuskYeah, right, exactly. It's a little weird that I think they should do a proper investigation. Like, what's the downside on that? Proper investigation, Right.
6:18Joe RoganNo, yeah, for sure.
6:20Elon MuskYeah.
6:20Joe RoganBut the whole exchange is so bizarre.
6:23Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
6:24Joe RoganSam Altman's reaction to being accused of murder is bizarre.
6:28Elon MuskLook, I don't know if he's guilty, but it's not possible to look more guilty. So I'm like.
6:35Joe RoganOr look more weird.
6:37Elon MuskYeah.
6:37Joe RoganYou know, maybe it's just his social thing. Like, maybe he's just odd with confrontation and it just goes blank, you know? But if somebody was accusing me of killing Jamie, like, if Jamie was a whistleblower and Jamie got whacked, and then I'd be like, wait, what do you.
6:55Joe RoganWhat are you. Are you accusing me of killing my friend? Like, what the fuck are you talking about? I would. I would be a little bit more irate.
7:02Elon MuskYeah, yeah, exactly.
7:04Joe RoganI would be a little upset.
7:06Elon MuskYeah. It'd be like. Well, you'd be like. You'd certainly insist on a thorough Investigation.
7:12Joe RoganYeah.
7:13Elon MuskAs opposed to trying to sweep it under the rug.
7:15Joe RoganYeah. I wouldn't assume that he got that he committed suicide. I would be suspicious. If Tucker was telling me that aspect of the story, I'd be like, that does seem like a murder.
7:24Joe RoganFuck, we should look into this.
7:25Elon MuskI mean, all signs point to it being a murder. Not saying, you know, Sam Albin had anything to do with the murder, but
7:30Joe Roganblood in two rooms.
7:31Elon MuskIt's blood in two rooms. Like, yeah, the wires, the security camera, and the doordash being ordered right before suicide. No suicide note. His parents think he was murdered. And the people that I know who knew him said he was not suicidal.
7:48Elon MuskSo I'm like this, why would you jump to the conclusion
7:53Joe Roganthey sue the son's landlord? Alleged the owners and the managers their son San Francisco apartment building were part of a widespread cover up of his death.
7:59Elon MuskThe landlord.
8:00Joe RoganYeah, there's a bunch of weird. They said there's like packages missing from the building. Some people said they saw packages still being delivered and all sudden they all disappeared.
8:07Joe RoganHuh. That could be. People steal people's packages all the time.
8:11Elon MuskPorch pirate situation. Yeah, yeah.
8:14Joe RoganThey failed to safeguard also, I mean, the amount of trauma those poor parents have gone through with their son dying like that, I mean, it must. God bless them.
8:24Joe RoganAnd how could they stay sane after something like that? They're probably. They're so grief stricken. Who knows what they believe at this point.
8:32Elon MuskYeah. You should have asked if Epson killed himself.
8:37Joe RoganYeah, that's the cash. Dan Bonjean trying to convince everybody of
8:44Elon Muskthat the gods weren't there and the camera stopped working. And, you know, the guards were asleep,
8:52Joe Roganthe cameras weren't working. He had a giant steroided up bodybuilder guy that he was sharing a cell with that was a murderer who was a bad cop. Like, all of it's kind of nuts.
9:04Joe RoganAll of it's kind of nuts. Like, that he would just kill himself rather than reveal all of his billionaire friends.
9:12Elon MuskYeah.
9:12Joe RoganAnd then did you see Tim Dillon talking to Chris Cuomo about this? I did. He liked Chris Cuomo. Just looked so stupid. Tim just listed off all the. Tim just.
9:22Joe RoganAnd he's like, I agree, it is strange. Like, of course it's strange, Chris. Jesus Christ. You can't just go with the tide. You got to think things through. And if you think that one through, you're like, I don't think he killed himself.
9:35Joe RoganNobody does. You'd have to work for an intelligence agency to think he killed himself.
9:40Elon MuskIt does. It does seem unlikely.
9:42Joe RoganIt seems highly Unlikely. Highly unlikely. All point to murder.
9:49Elon MuskYes, point to.
9:50Joe RoganThey had to get rid of him because he knew too much. Whatever the fuck he was doing, whatever kind of an asset he was, whatever thing he was up to, you know, was apparently very effective.
10:01Elon MuskYes.
10:01Joe RoganAnd a lot of people were compromised. You see, your boy Bill Gates is now saying, climate change is not a big deal. Relax, everybody. I know I scared the fuck out of you for the last decade and a half, but we're gonna be fine.
10:16Elon MuskYeah, I mean, you know, as I was saying just before coming into the studio, you know, like, every day there's some crazy wild new thing that's happening. It just feels like reality is accelerating.
10:29Joe RoganIt's every day, and every day it's, like, more and more ridiculous to the point where the simulation is more and more undeniable.
10:37Elon MuskYeah. Yeah, it really feels like simulation, you know, it's like, come on, what are the odds that this could be the case?
10:42Joe RoganAre you paying attention at all? The Three Eye Atlas, Are you the comet? Yeah. Whatever it is. Yeah, Yeah.
10:49Elon MuskI mean. I mean, one thing I can say is, like, look, I. If I was aware of any evidence of aliens. Joe, you have my word, I will come on your show and I will reveal it on the show.
11:03Joe RoganOkay.
11:04Elon MuskYeah, That's a good deal. Yeah, it's pretty good.
11:06Joe RoganI believe you. Yeah.
11:06Elon MuskThank you. I'll stick. I keep, you know, keep my promises, so.
11:11Joe RoganAll right, yeah, I'll hold you to that.
11:12Elon MuskYeah.
11:13Joe RoganYeah.
11:13Elon MuskAnd I'm never committing suicide, to be clear.
11:16Joe RoganI don't think you would either.
11:18Elon MuskOn camera, guys. I am never committing suicide, ever.
11:22Joe RoganIf someone says you committed suicide, I will fight tooth and nail.
11:25Elon MuskThank you. I will fight tooth and nail.
11:26Joe RoganI will.
11:27Elon MuskI will not believe it.
11:28Joe RoganI will not believe it. The thing about the Three Eye Atlas
11:31Elon Muskis that's a hell of a name, actually.
11:33Joe RoganYeah, it's a third.
11:35Elon MuskIt sounds like third eye or something.
11:36Joe RoganYeah, it does. Three I is the third. It's only the third interstellar object that's detected.
11:42Elon MuskOkay.
11:43Joe RoganYeah, yeah. Avi Loeb was on the podcast a couple days ago talking about it.
11:50Elon MuskYeah, it could be onions, I don't know.
11:52Joe RoganBut apparently today they're saying that it's changed course. Did you see that, Jamie? Avi Lobe said something today. I'll send it to you. I know it's on Reddit. Here you go, Jamie.
12:09Joe RoganI'll send it to you right now. It's fascinating. It's fascinating also because it's made almost entirely of nickel, whatever it is. And the only way that Exists here is industrial alloys, apparently.
12:23Elon MuskNo, there are definitely comets and asteroids that are made primarily of nickel. Oh really? Yeah. So the places where you mine nickel on Earth is actually where there was an asteroid or comet that hit Earth that was a nickel rich, you know, nickel rich meteorite.
12:41Joe RoganNickel rich deposit.
12:43Elon MuskYeah, it's coming. Those are from impacts. You definitely didn't want to be there at the time because anything would have been obliterated. But that's where the sources of nickel and cobalt are these days.
12:54Joe RoganSo this is Avi Loeb a few hours ago. The first hint of non gravitational acceleration, that something other than gravity is affecting its acceleration, meaning something is affecting its trajectory beyond gravity was indicated.
13:05Joe RoganInteresting. Dun, dun, dun.
13:11Joe RoganSo it's mostly nickel, very little iron, which he was saying is on Earth. It only exists in alloys. But whatever, you know, you're dealing with another planet.
13:25Elon MuskThere are cases where there's very nickel rich asteroids. Meteorite for something from space. Yeah. It doesn't mean it'll be very sort of heavy spaceship to be. Make it all out of nickel.
13:36Elon MuskOh, yeah.
13:38Joe RoganAnd fucking huge. The size of Manhattan and all nickel. That's kind of nuts.
13:41Elon MuskYeah, that's a heavy spaceship.
13:43Joe RoganThat's a real problem. If it hits.
13:45Elon MuskYes. No, it would like obliterate a continent type of thing.
13:48Joe RoganYeah.
13:49Elon MuskMaybe worse.
13:50Joe RoganProbably kill most of human life, if not all of us.
13:54Elon MuskIt depends on what the total mass is. But I mean, the thing is like in the fossil record there are, you know, there's like arguably five major extinction events.
14:06Elon MuskLike the biggest one of which is the Permian extinction where almost all life was eliminated. That actually occurred over several million years. There's the Jurassic. I think Jurassic is.
14:17Elon MuskI think that one's pretty definitively an asteroid. But there's been five major extinction events. But what they don't count are really the ones that merely take out a continent, so.
14:31Joe RoganMerely.
14:32Elon MuskYeah, because those don't really show up on the fossil record, you know.
14:35Joe RoganRight.
14:37Elon MuskSo unless it's enough to cause a, you know, mass extinction event throughout Earth, it doesn't show up, you know, in a fossil record that's 200 million years old. So the.
14:50Elon MuskYeah, but there have been many, many impacts that would have sort of destroyed all life on, you know, let's say half of North America or something like that. There are many such impacts through the course of history.
15:03Joe RoganYeah. And there's nothing we could do about it right now.
15:06Elon MuskYeah, there was one that hits. There was one that hit Siberia and destroyed I think a few hundred square miles.
15:14Joe RoganOh, that's the Tunguska. Yeah, yeah, that's the one from the 1920s, right? Yeah, yeah, that's the one that coincides with that meteor, that comet storm that we go through every June and every November that they think is responsible for that Younger Dryas impact.
15:29Joe RoganYeah, all that shit's crazy. Thank you before we go any further, for letting us have a tour of SpaceX and letting us be there for the rocket launch. One of the absolute coolest things I've ever seen in my life.
15:45Joe RoganAnd we were, we thought it was only like. I thought it was a half a mile. Jamie's like, it was a mile away. Turned out it's almost two miles away.
15:53Joe RoganAnd you feel it in your chest.
15:54Elon MuskYeah, it's. You have to wear and you feel
15:57Joe Roganit in your chest and it's two miles away. Yeah, it was fucking amazing. And then to go with you up into the command center and to watch all the Starlink satellites with all the different cameras and all in real time as it made its way all the way to Australia.
16:13Joe RoganHow many minutes? Like 35, 40 minutes.
16:15Elon MuskYeah.
16:16Joe RoganWild. Watch it. Touchdown in Australia.
16:19Elon MuskYeah.
16:19Joe RoganFucking crazy. It was amazing.
16:22Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
16:23Joe RoganAbsolutely amazing.
16:24Elon MuskThe starship's awesome and anyone can go watch the launch, actually. So you can just go to South Padre island, get as a great view of the launch. So it's like where a lot of spring breakers go, but.
16:36Elon MuskBut we'll be flying pretty frequently out of Starbase in South Texas and we formally incorporated it as a city, so it's actually legally an actual legal city. Starbase Texas.
16:47Elon MuskIt's not that often you hear like, hey, we made a city. You know, that used to be like, like in the old days, like a startup would be, you go and gather a bunch of people and say, hey, let's go make a town.
16:57Elon MuskLiterally.
16:57Joe RoganRight.
16:58Elon MuskThat was like. That would have been startups in the old days.
17:01Joe RoganOr a country.
17:02Elon MuskYeah, or a country. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
17:04Joe RoganActually, if you tried doing that today, there'd be a real problem.
17:07Elon MuskYeah. Things are so much, so much set in stone on the country front these days. You might be able to pull it off.
17:11Joe RoganYou might be able to pull it off. If you got a solid island, you might be able to pull it off. You know, probably, you know, like, like making new countries.
17:20Joe RoganLanai. Yeah.
17:21Elon MuskYou could put this it enough effort into it, you can make a new country.
17:25Joe RoganThis is one of the different ones. This is one of the ones that you catch, right? Or is that one? Yeah, that's.
17:29Elon MuskThat's the booster. So that's the super heavy booster. So that's one with. The booster's got 33 engines that, that. And it's, you know, by version four, that will have about 10,000 tons of thrust.
17:44Elon MuskYou know, right now it's about seven, 8,000 tons of thrust. That's the largest flying object ever made.
17:50Joe RoganI had to explain to someone, they were going, why do they blow up all the time if you're so smart? Because there was this fucking idiot on television, some guy was being interviewed and they were talking about you.
18:01Joe RoganAnd he goes, oh, I think he's a fuckwit. And he goes, he's a fuckwit. And. And he goes, why? Oh, his rockets keep blowing up. And someone said, yeah, well, why do his rockets blow?
18:08Joe RoganAnd I had to explain because it's the only way you find out what the tolerances are. You have to, you have to follow
18:14Elon Muskthe corners of the box. So when you do a new rocket development program, you have to do what's called exploring the limits, the corners of the box where you say it's like worst case this, worst case that, to figure out where the limits are.
18:31Elon MuskSo you blow up. You know, admittedly in the development process, sometimes it blows up accidentally, but we intentionally subject it to, you know, a flight regime that is much worse than what we expect in normal flight.
18:46Elon MuskSo that when we put people on board or valuable cargo, it doesn't blow up. So, for example, for the flight that you saw, we actually deliberately took heat shield tiles off the ship, off of Starship in some of the worst locations to say, okay, if we lose a heat shield tile here, is it catastrophic or is it not?
19:10Elon MuskAnd nonetheless, Starship was able to do a soft landing in the Indian Ocean just west of Australia, which got there from Texas in like, I don't know, 35, 40 minutes type of thing.
19:24Joe RoganSo it landed even though you put it through this situation where it has
19:28Elon Muskcompromised shield, it had an unusually. We brought it in hot, like an extra hot trajectory with missing tiles to see if it would still make it to a soft landing, which it did.
19:42Elon MuskNow, I should point out it did have. There were some holes that were burnt into it, but it was robust enough to land despite having some holes burnt. You know that?
19:53Elon MuskYeah, because it's coming in like a blazing meteor. You can see the real time video.
19:57Joe RoganWell, tell me the speed again, because the speed was bananas you were talking about.
20:00Elon MuskYeah, it's like seven, 18,000 miles an hour, 25 times the speed of sound or thereabouts. So the. So think of it like it's like 12 times faster than a bullet from an assault rifle.
20:14Elon MuskYou know, both from assault rifles, round Mach 2.
20:17Joe RoganAnd it's huge.
20:18Elon MuskYeah, yeah. Or compare it to like a bullet from a, you know, a.45 or 9 mil, which is subsonic. That's, you know, It'll be about 30 times faster than a bullet from a handgun.
20:32Joe Rogan30 times faster than a bullet from a handgun. And it's the size of a skyscraper.
20:36Elon MuskYes. Yeah, that's fast.
20:41Joe RoganIt's so wild. It's so wild. See, man, it's. It's so exciting. There's the factory. So exciting too, because like, genuinely, no bullshit. I felt like I was witnessing history.
20:54Joe RoganI felt like it was a scene in a movie where someone had expectations and. And they like, what are they doing? They're building rockets. And you go there and as we're walking through Jamie, you could speak to this too.
21:04Joe RoganDidn't you have the feeling where you're like, oh, this is way bigger than I thought it was.
21:09Elon MuskThis is awesome.
21:12Joe RoganCrazy.
21:12Elon MuskThat's what she said.
21:13Joe RoganThe, ah, the amount of rockets you're making.
21:17Elon MuskI don't know if you tend back
21:21Joe RoganGigachad in the house.
21:22Elon MuskThis is way bigger than that.
21:25Joe RoganIt's a giant metal dick. You're fucking fucking the universe with your giant metal dick.
21:29Elon MuskYeah, I mean, yeah, it is, it is very big.
21:32Joe RoganAnd the sheer numbers of them that you guys are making. And then this is a version and you have a new updated version that's coming soon. And what is the other one?
21:43Elon MuskIt's a little longer, more pointy. It's the same amount of pointy, but it's got a bit more length. The interstage. You see that interstage section with kind of like the grill area that's now integrated with the boost stage.
22:01Elon MuskSo we do what's called hot staging, where we light the ship engines while it's still attached to the booster. So the booster engines are still thrusting. It's still being pushed forward by the booster of the ship.
22:14Elon MuskBut then we light the ship engines and the ship engines actually pull away from the booster, even though the booster engines are still firing.
22:21Joe RoganWhoa.
22:23Elon MuskSo it's blasting flame through that grill section where we integrate that grill section into the boost stage with the next version of the rocket. And next version of the rocket will have the Raptor 3 engines, which are a huge improvement.
22:41Elon MuskYou may have seen them in the lobby because we've got the raptor 1, 2 and 3. And you can see the dramatic improvement in simplicity. We should probably put a plaque there to also show how much we reduce the weight, the cost, and the.
22:55Elon MuskAnd improve the efficiency and the thrust. So the Raptor 3 has almost twice the thrust of Raptor 1.
23:06Joe RoganWow.
23:07Elon MuskSo you see Raptor 3, it looks like it's got parts missing. Right.
23:12Joe RoganAnd how many.
23:12Elon MuskIt's very, very clean.
23:14Joe RoganHow many of them are on the rocket?
23:15Elon MuskThere's 33 on the booster. And each Raptor engine is producing twice as much thrust as all four engines on a 747.
23:30Joe RoganWow.
23:32Elon MuskSo that engine is smaller than a 747 engine, but it's producing almost 10 times the thrust of a 747 engine. So extremely high power to weight ratio. There's 33 of them.
23:51Joe RoganSo when you're designing these, you get to Raptor 1, you see its efficiency, you see where you can improve it. You get to Raptor 2. How far can you scale this up with just the same sort of technology with propellant and ignition and engines, like, how much further can you.
24:08Elon MuskWe're pushing the limits of physics here. So. And really, in order to make a fully reusable orbital rocket, which no one has succeeded in doing yet, including, including us, but Starship is the first time that there is a design for a rocket where full and rapid reusability is actually possible.
24:33Elon MuskSo it was not. There's not even been a design before where it was possible. Certainly not a design that got made any hardware at all. We live on a planet where the gravity is quite high.
24:49Elon MuskLike Earth's gravity is really quite high. And if the gravity was even 10 or 20% higher, we'll be stuck on Earth forever. Yeah, we could not use, certainly couldn't use conventional rockets.
25:04Elon MuskYou'd have to like blow yourself off the surface with like a nuclear bomb or something crazy. So on the other hand, if Earth's gravity was just a little lower, like even 10, 20% lower, then getting to orbit would be easy.
25:18Elon MuskSo it's like, it's like, it's like if this was video game, it's set to like maximum difficulty, but not impossible.
25:24Joe RoganOkay.
25:26Elon MuskSo that's what we have here. So it's not as though others have ignored the concept of reusability. They've just concluded that it was too difficult to achieve. And we've been working on this for a long time at SpaceX, and I'm the chief engineer of the company, although I should say that we were an extremely talented engineering team.
25:53Elon MuskI think we've got the best rocket engineering team that has ever been assembled. It's an honor to work with such incredible People. So it's fair to say that we have not yet succeeded in achieving full reusability, but we at last have a rocket where full reusability is possible.
26:16Elon MuskAnd I think we'll achieve it next year. So that's a really big deal. And the reason that's such a big deal is that full reusability drops the cost of access to space by 100, maybe even more than 100, actually.
26:40Elon MuskSo it could be like 1,000. You can think of it like any mode of transport. Like, imagine if aircraft were not reusable. Like, you flew somewhere, you throw the plane at.
26:50Elon MuskLike, imagine if, like the way conventional rockets work is, it would be like if you had an airplane and instead of landing at your destination, you parachute out and the plane crashes somewhere and you land at your des and you land in a parachute at your destination.
27:05Elon MuskNow, that would be a very expensive trip and you'd need another plane to get back, but that's how the other rockets in the world work. Now, the SpaceX Falcon rocket is the only one that is at least mostly reusable.
27:21Elon MuskYou've seen the Falcon rocket land. We've now done over 500 landings of the SpaceX rocket, of the Falcon 9 rocket. And this year we'll deliver probably, I don't know, somewhere between 2,200 and 2500 tons to orbit with the Falcon 9 Falcon Heavy rockets, not counting anything from Starship.
27:51Joe RoganAnd this is mostly Starlink.
27:53Elon MuskYes, mostly Starlink, but we launched many other. We even launched our competitors on comparison to StarLink, on Falcon 9, we charge the same price. Pretty fair. But SpaceX this year will deliver roughly 90% of all Earth mass to orbit.
28:11Elon MuskWow. And then of the remaining 10%, most of that is done by China. And then the remaining roughly 4% is everyone else in the world, including our domestic competitors.
28:25Joe RoganYou know, it's kind of incredible how many things are in space, like, how many things are floating above us now,
28:32Elon Muskthere's a lot of things, right, but
28:37Joe Roganis there a saturation point where we're going to have problems with all these different satellites that are.
28:43Elon MuskI think as long as the satellites are maintained, it'll be fine. Space is very roomy. Like, you can think of space as being concentric shells of the surface of the Earth.
28:59Elon MuskSo, you know, it's the surface of the Earth, but it's a series.
29:05Joe RoganIt's much larger.
29:06Elon MuskYeah, it's like a series of concentric trails.
29:09Joe RoganAnd think of an Airstream trailer flying around up there. There's a lot of room for Airstreams.
29:14Elon MuskYeah. I mean imagine. Yeah. If there's just a few thousand Airstreams on Earth.
29:19Joe RoganYeah.
29:19Elon MuskWhat are the odds that they'd hit each other?
29:20Joe RoganThey wouldn't be very crowded.
29:21Elon MuskYeah.
29:22Joe RoganAnd then you got to go bigger.
29:24Elon MuskYeah.
29:24Joe RoganBecause you're dealing with far above Earth, hundreds of miles above Earth.
29:28Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's the. But the goal of SpaceX is to get rocket technology to the point where we can extend life beyond Earth and that we can establish a self sustaining city on Mars, a permanent base on the moon.
29:43Elon MuskThat would be very cool. I mean, imagine if we had like a, you know, Moon Base Alpha where there's like a permanent science base on the moon.
29:49Joe RoganThat would be pretty dope. Or at least a tourist trap.
29:52Elon MuskI mean, a lot of people be
29:55Joe Roganwilling to go to the moon for,
29:56Elon Muskjust for a tour, that's for sure. We could probably pay for our space program with that.
30:00Joe RoganProbably. Yeah.
30:01Elon MuskWell, because it's like if you, if you could go to the moon with, and safely, I think we'd get. A lot of people would pay for that.
30:12Joe RoganOh, 100%. After the first year, after nobody died.
30:15Elon MuskYeah.
30:16Joe RoganYeah.
30:16Elon MuskMake sure. Are you gonna come back?
30:18Joe RoganBecause like that submarine, they, they had a bunch of successful launches in that private submarine before it exploded and killed everybody.
30:26Elon MuskThat was not a good design, obviously.
30:27Joe RoganIt was a very bad design and the engineer said it would not withstand the pressure of those depths. Like, there's a lot of whistleblowers in that company too.
30:36Elon MuskYeah, they made that out of carbon fiber, which doesn't make any sense because you actually need to be dense to go down. In any case, you just make it out of steel.
30:47Elon MuskIf you make it out of sort of just, you know, a big steel casting, that's, that's you'll be safe and nothing will happen.
30:54Joe RoganWhy would they make it out of carbon fiber then? Is it cheaper?
30:58Elon MuskI think they think carbon fiber sounds cool or something, but it does sound cool. It sounds cool, but because it's such low density, you actually have to add extra mass to go down because it's low density.
31:10Elon MuskBut if you just have a giant hollow ball bearing, you're going to be fine.
31:15Joe RoganSpeaking of carbon fiber, check out my unplugged Tesla out there.
31:18Elon MuskYeah, it's cool.
31:19Joe RoganPretty sick, right? Have you guys ever thought about doing something like that? Like having like an AMG division of Tesla where you do like custom stuff?
31:29Elon MuskI think it's best to leave that to the custom shops. You know, we're like, Tesla's focus is autonomous cars. You Know, building kind of futuristic autonomous cars. So, like, I think it's.
31:49Elon MuskWe want the future to look like the future. So the, like. Did you see, like, designs for, like, the sort of the robotic bus? It looks pretty cool.
31:59Joe RoganThe robotic bus is also being totally autonomous.
32:02Elon MuskWe need to actually figure out the good name for it, like, I think called the robust, or there's no good. There's like. What do you call this thing? But it looks cool.
32:08Elon MuskIt's very art deco. It's like futuristic art deco. And I think we want to change the aesthetic over time. You don't want the aesthetic to be constant over time.
32:24Elon MuskYou want to evolve the aesthetic. So, like, I have a son who's like, you know, he's, like, even more autistic than me, but he has these great observations.
32:39Joe RoganWho is this?
32:40Elon MuskThe Saxon? He has these great observations in the world because he just views the world through a different lens than most people. And he's like, dad, why does the world look like it's 2015?
32:55Elon MuskI'm like, damn, the world does look like it's 2015. Like, the aesthetic has not evolved since 2015.
33:00Joe RoganOh, that's what it looks like?
33:01Elon MuskYeah.
33:02Joe RoganOh, wow.
33:03Elon MuskThat's pretty cool.
33:04Joe RoganOh, yeah. That's like.
33:05Elon MuskYou'd want to see that going down the road, you know?
33:07Joe RoganYeah.
33:08Elon MuskYou'd be like, okay, this is. We're in the future, you know, it doesn't look like 2015.
33:12Joe RoganWhat is that ancient science fiction movie? Like, one of the first science fiction movies ever? Is it Metropolis? Is that what it is?
33:17Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah.
33:18Joe RoganThat looks like it belongs in Metropolis.
33:20Elon MuskYeah, yeah. It's a futuristic art deco.
33:24Joe RoganYeah. Well, that's cool that you concentrating on the aesthetic. That's kind of the whole deal with cybertruck, right? Like, it didn't have to look like that.
33:31Elon MuskNo, I just wanted to have something that looked really different.
33:35Joe RoganIs it a pain in the ass for people to get it insured? Because it's all solid steel, and I
33:40Elon Muskhope it's not too much. Tesla does offer insurance, so you can always get insured at Tesla. Well, but, like, it is the form does follow function in the case of the cybertruck, because as you demonstrated with your armor piercing arrow.
33:56Elon MuskBecause if you shot that arrow at a regular truck, you would have.
33:59Joe RoganRight through it.
33:59Elon MuskYeah, exactly. You would have found your arrow in the wall. It would have gone through.
34:04Joe RoganAt the very least, it would have buried into one of the seats.
34:06Elon MuskYeah, yeah. But you could definitely get enough of bow velocity and the right arrow would go through both doors. Of a regular truck and land on the wall.
34:17Joe RoganIf there was a clear shot between both doors, it probably would have passed right through.
34:21Elon MuskExactly. But the arrow shattered on the Cybertruck because it's ultra hard stainless. And I thought it'd be cool to have a truck that is bulletproof to a subsonic projectile.
34:39Elon MuskSo especially in this day and age, like if the apocalypse happens, you're going to want to have a bulletproof truck, you know. So then because it's made of ultra hot stainless, you can't just stamp the panels, you can't just put in a stamping press because it breaks the press.
34:58Elon MuskSo in order to actually. So it has to be plainer because it's so difficult to bend because it breaks the machine that bends it. That's why, that's why it's so planar and it's not, you know, it's because it's bulletproof steel.
35:18Joe RoganSo it is like boxy as opposed to like curved.
35:21Elon MuskAnd yeah, you just, in order to make like the curved shapes, you take basically mild steel, like a Neil's. In a regular truck car, you take mild, thin annealed steel, you put it in a stamping press and it just smushes it and makes it whatever shape you want.
35:44Elon MuskBut the cybertruck is made of ultra hard stainless and so you can't stamp it because it would break the stamping press. So even bending it is hard. So even to bend it to its current position, we have to way over bend it.
36:03Elon MuskAnd so it gets so that when it springs back, it's in the right position. So it's. I don't know, I think if you want to, I think it's a unique aesthetic and you say, well, what's cool about a truck?
36:18Elon MuskTrucks should be, I don't know, manly. They should be macho, you know, and bulletproof is maximum macho. Pierre Smas, macho.
36:27Joe RoganAre you married to that shape now? Like, is it. Can you do anything to change it? Like, does he get further? Like, I know you guys updated the 3 and the Y.
36:36Joe RoganDid you update the Y as well?
36:38Elon MuskYes, the new and the Y are updated. You know, there's like, there's a screen in the back for the kid that the kids can watch, for example, in the new 3 and Y.
36:52Elon MuskSort of in the new Y, there's, there's like hundreds of improvements. Like we keep improving the car and even the cybertruck, we keep improving it, but I wanted to just do something that looked unique and the cybertruck looks unique and has unique functionality and there were three things.
37:17Elon MuskI was very Porsche. Let's make it bulletproof, let's make it faster than a Porsche 911. And we actually cleared the quarter mile. The cybertruck can clear a quarter mile while towing a Porsche 911 faster than a Porsche 911.
37:38Elon MuskIt can out tow an F350 diesel.
37:43Joe RoganReally?
37:44Elon MuskYes.
37:44Joe RoganWhat is the tow limitations?
37:46Elon MuskI mean, we could tow like a 747 in that. With a cybertruck. A cybertruck is insanely. It is an. It is alien technology. Okay. Because it shouldn't be possible to be that big and that fast.
38:04Elon MuskThat doesn't. It's like an elephant that runs like a cheetah.
38:08Joe RoganYeah. Because it's zero to 60 in less than three seconds.
38:11Elon MuskYes.
38:11Joe RoganYeah. And it's enormous. What does it weigh, like 7,000 pounds?
38:15Elon MuskYeah. This is different configurations, but it's about that. That's a beast.
38:21Joe RoganYeah.
38:23Elon MuskSo. And it's got four wheel steering, so the rear wheel steer too. So it's got a very tight turning radius.
38:32Joe RoganYeah, we noticed that when we drove one to Starbase.
38:34Elon MuskYeah, Very tight turning radius.
38:36Joe RoganYeah. Pretty sick.
38:37Elon MuskYeah.
38:37Joe RoganAre you still doing the roadster?
38:40Elon MuskYes, eventually. We're getting close to demonstrating the prototype and I think this will be. One thing I can guarantee is that this product demo will be unforgettable. Unforgettable?
39:03Joe RoganHow so?
39:07Elon MuskWhether it's good or bad, it will be unforgettable.
39:15Joe RoganCan you say more? What do you mean?
39:18Elon MuskWell, you know, my friend Peter Thiel, you know, once reflected that the future was supposed to have flying cars, but we don't have flying cars.
39:30Joe RoganSo you're going to be able to fly?
39:31Elon MuskWell, I mean,
39:36Elon MuskI think if Peter wants a flying car, we should be able to buy one.
39:42Joe RoganSo are you actively considering making an electric flying car? Is this like a real thing?
39:48Elon MuskWell, we have to see in the.
39:49Joe RoganIn the demo. So when you do this, like, are you going to have a retractable wing? Like, what is the idea behind this? Don't be sly. Come on.
40:03Elon MuskI can't do the unveil before the unveil, but tell me off air then. Look, I think it has a shot at being the most memorable product unveil ever. It has a shot.
40:24Joe RoganAnd when you plan on doing this, what's the goal?
40:29Elon MuskHopefully before the end of the year. Really?
40:32Joe RoganBefore the end of this year? This is. I mean, we're.
40:35Elon MuskYeah, like in a couple months. Hopefully in a couple months. You know, we need to make sure that it works. Like this is some Crazy, crazy technology we got in this car.
40:49Elon MuskCrazy technology. Crazy, crazy.
40:54Joe RoganSo different than what was previously announced and.
40:59Elon MuskYes.
41:01Joe RoganAnd is that why you haven't released it yet? Because you keep fucking with
41:06Elon Muskhas crazy technology.
41:07Joe RoganOkay.
41:08Elon MuskLike, is it even a car? I'm not sure. It's like, it looks like a car, but let's just put it this way.
41:17Joe RoganIt's.
41:17Elon MuskIt's crazier than anything James Bond. If you took all the James Bond cars and combined them, it's crazier than that.
41:28Joe RoganVery exciting. I don't know what to think about. It's a limited amount of information I'm drawing from here. Jamie's very suspicious over there. Look at him. Excited. I'm interested.
41:40Joe RoganIt's still going to be the same.
41:41Elon MuskWell, you know what I mean. If you want to come a little before the. The unveil, I can show it to you 100%.
41:47Joe RoganYeah, let's go. Yeah, it's. It's kind of crazy all the different things that you're involved in simultaneously and you know, we talked about this before, your time management, but I really don't understand it.
42:02Joe RoganI don't understand how you can be paying attention to all these different things simultaneously. Starlink, SpaceX, Tesla. Boring. Company X. You fucking tweet. Or post rather all day long.
42:17Elon MuskWell, it's more like I could hop in for like two minutes and then hop out, you know, But I mean, just the fact that you could do whatever, you know, I can't do that.
42:25Joe RoganIf I hop in, I start scrolling, I start looking around. Next thing you know, I've lost an hour.
42:30Elon MuskYeah, so no, it's. For me, it's a couple minutes time. Usually once or sometimes, I guess half an hour, but usually I'm in for a few minutes. Then out of posting something on X, I do sometimes feel like it's sometimes like that meme of the guy who drops the grenade and leaves the room.
42:52Elon MuskThat's been me more than once on X.
42:55Joe RoganYes. Oh, yeah. Yeah, for sure. It's gotta be fun, though. It's gotta be fun to know that you essentially disrupted the entire social media chain of command. Because there was a very clear thing that was going on with social media.
43:14Joe RoganThe government had infiltrated it. They were censoring speech. And until you bought it, we really didn't know the extent of it. We kind of assumed that there was something going on.
43:23Joe RoganWe had no idea that they were actively involved in censoring actual real news stories, real data, real scientists, real professors. Silenced, Expelled. Kicked off the platform.
43:34Elon MuskYeah.
43:35Joe RoganWild.
43:37Elon MuskYeah.
43:37Joe RoganYeah.
43:38Elon MuskWe're telling the truth.
43:39Joe RoganFor telling the truth. And I'm sure you've also. I kind of. Because I sent it to you. That chart that shows young kids, teenagers identifying as trans and non binary.
43:48Elon MuskRight.
43:49Joe RoganLiterally stops dead when you bought Twitter.
43:52Elon MuskYeah.
43:52Joe RoganAnd starts falling off a cliff when people are allowed to have rational discussions now.
43:56Elon MuskYeah.
43:56Joe RoganAnd actually talk about it.
43:57Elon MuskYes. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I said at the time, like, I think that, like, the reason for acquiring Twitter is because it was. It was. It was causing destruction at a civilizational level.
44:13Elon MuskIt was. I mean, I posted, I tweeted on Twitter at the time that it is, you know, it's Wormtongue for the world. You know, like Wormtongue from Lord of the Rings, where he would just sort of like whisper these terrible things to the king so the king would believe these things that weren't true.
44:42Elon MuskAnd unfortunately, Twitter really got. It got like the woke mob, essentially, they controlled Twitter and they were pushing a nihilistic, anti civilizational mind virus to the world. And you can see the results of that mind virus on the streets of San Francisco, where, you know, downtown San Francisco looks like a zombie apocalypse.
45:08Elon MuskYou know, it's bad. So we don't want the whole world to be a zombie apocalypse. But that's. That was essentially. They were pushing this very negative, nihilistic, untrue worldview on the world, and it was causing a lot of damage.
45:30Joe RoganThe stunning thing about it is how few people course corrected. A bunch of people woke up and realized what was going on. People that were all on board with, like, woke ideology, maybe 2015 or 16.
45:41Joe RoganAnd then eventually it comes to affect them, or they see it in the workplace, or they see it and they're like, whoa, whoa, who we got to stop stop this.
45:47Joe RoganA bunch of people did, but a lot of people never course corrected.
45:51Elon MuskYeah, a lot of people didn't course correct, but it's gone directionally. It's directionally correct. Like you mentioned the massive spike in kids identifying as trans and then that spike dropping after the Twitter acquisition.
46:12Elon MuskI think that simply allowing the truth to be told was just shedding sun. Sunlight is the best disinfectant, as they say. And just allowing sunlight kills the virus.
46:24Joe RoganAnd it also changed the benchmark for all the other platforms. You can't just openly censor people on all the other platforms. And X is available. So everybody else had a.
46:34Joe RoganFacebook announced they were changing, YouTube announced they were changing their policies, and they're kind of forced to. And blue sky double down.
46:44Elon MuskWell, like, the problem is, like, if Essentially, the woke mind virus retreated to work to Blue Sky. Yeah, but it's where just a self reinforcing lunatic.
46:55Joe RoganThey're all just triple masked. I was totally watching this exchange on a blue sky where someone said that they're just trying to be Zen about something. And then someone, a moderator, immediately chimed in and why don't you try to stop being racist against Asians by saying something Zen?
47:14Joe RoganBy saying I'm trying to be Zen about something, they were accusing that person of being racist towards Asians.
47:21Elon MuskYeah, it's just everyone's a whole monitor over there.
47:25Joe RoganThe worst hall monitor, a virgin like incel.
47:30Elon MuskThey're all hall monitors trying to rat on each other.
47:32Joe RoganYeah, it's fascinating. And then people say, I'm leaving for Blue sky, like Stephen King. Then a couple weeks later it's back on X. Yeah, fuck it, there's no one over there.
47:42Joe RoganIt's all a bunch of crazy people. You can only stay in the asylum for so long. Like, all right, this is not good. They all bail.
47:50Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.
47:50Joe RoganThreads kind of like that too. Threads.
47:53Elon MuskI've been on threads. Is it?
47:55Joe RoganWell, what happens is if you go on Instagram every now and then, something really stupid will pop up on threads, like, what the fuck? And it shows it to you on Instagram.
48:04Joe RoganAnd then I'll click on that and then I'll go to Threads and it's like you see posts with like 25 likes, like famous people, like 50, like it's. It's like.
48:13Joe RoganNo, but the people that post on there, they're finding that there's very little pushback from insane ideology. So they go there and they spit out nonsense. And very few people jump in to argue.
48:27Elon MuskYeah, Very weird.
48:28Joe RoganVery weird place.
48:29Elon MuskI mean, I can generally get the vibe of like, what's taking off by seeing what's showing up on X. Because that's the public town square still. Or what links show up in group texts.
48:41Elon MuskIf I'm in group chats with friends, what links are showing up?
48:45Joe RoganThat's what I try to do now. Only get stuff that shows up in my group text because that keeps me productive. So I only check if someone's like, dude, what the fuck?
48:53Joe RoganI'm like, all right, what the fuck?
48:54Elon MuskLet me check it out. If there's something that's crazy enough, it'll end with the group chat.
48:59Joe RoganBut there's always something. That's what's nuts. There's always some new law that's passed, some new insane thing that California is doing. Yeah, it's like, like a Giant chunk of it's happening in California.
49:11Joe RoganThe most preposterous things that I get.
49:13Elon MuskYeah.
49:14Joe RoganAnd then you got Gavin Newsom, who's running around saying, we all have California derangement Syndrome. He's just, like, ripping off Trump derangement and calling it California derangement. It's like, no, no, no, no, no, no.
49:25Joe RoganThe fucking. How many corporations have left California?
49:28Elon MuskIt's crazy.
49:29Joe RoganHundreds.
49:30Elon MuskYes.
49:30Joe RoganRight? Hundreds.
49:31Elon MuskYes.
49:31Joe RoganThat's not good.
49:33Elon MuskI mean, I mean, I think in an outlift.
49:36Joe RoganYeah. In an outlift, they moved to Tennessee.
49:38Elon MuskYeah.
49:38Joe RoganYeah. We can't do this anymore.
49:41Elon MuskRight.
49:42Joe RoganIt's the California company for food. It's like the greatest hamburger place ever.
49:46Elon MuskIt's awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, speaking of, like, just sort of open source and, like, looking at things openly. Like, I just like going in and out and seeing them make the burger.
49:55Joe RoganYeah, it's right there.
49:56Elon MuskChop the onions and they, you know, it's. You just see everything getting made in front of you. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. Like, I like. It should be like, how many wake up calls do you need to say that needs to be reformed in California?
50:09Joe RoganWell, the crazy thing that Newsom does is whenever someone brings up the problems in California, he starts rattling off all the positives. The most Fortune 500 companies, highest education.
50:19Joe RoganBut, yeah, that was all already there before you were governor.
50:25Elon MuskBut how many Fortune 500 companies have left California?
50:28Joe RoganAnd then you guys spent $24 billion on the homeless and it got way worse.
50:33Elon MuskYes. The homeless population doubled or something. People don't understand the homeless thing because it sort of preys on people's empathy. And I think we should have empathy and we should try to help people.
50:45Elon MuskBut the homeless industrial complex is really. It's dark, man. It should be. That network of NGOs should be called, like, the drug Zombie Farmers, because the more homeless people.
51:02Elon MuskAnd really, like, when you meet, like, you know, somebody who's like, totally dead inside, shuffling along down the street with a needle dangling out of their leg. Homeless is the wrong word.
51:14Elon MuskLike, homeless implies that somebody got a little behind on their mortgage payments, and if they just got a job offer, they'd be back on their feet. But someone who's.
51:22Elon MuskI mean, you see these videos of people that are just shuffling. You know, they're on fentanyl. They're. They're like, you know, taking a dump in the middle of the street.
51:31Elon MuskYou know, they got like open sores and stuff. They're not like one drop offer away from getting back on their feet.
51:38Joe RoganRight. This is not A homeless situation.
51:40Elon MuskHomeless is, it's a propaganda word. Right? So, and then these sort of charities, of course are, they get money proportionate to the number of homeless people or number of drug zombies.
51:57Elon MuskSo their incentive structure is to maximize the number of drug zombies, not minimize it. That's why they don't arrest the drug dealers. Because if they arrest the drug dealers, the drug zombies leave.
52:11Elon MuskSo they know who the drug dealers are. They don't arrest them on purpose because otherwise the drug zombies would leave and they would, they would stop getting money from the state of California and from, from all the charities.
52:22Joe RoganWait a minute, so you say, is that real? So they're in coordination with law enforcement on this.
52:29Elon MuskYeah.
52:30Joe RoganSo how do they, how do they have those meetings?
52:32Elon MuskThey're all in cahoots.
52:33Joe RoganWell, when you find this, it's like
52:35Elon Musksuch, it's, this is a diabolical scam. And San Francisco's got this tax, this gross receipts tax, which is not even on revenue, it's on all transactions. Which is why Stripe and Square and a whole bunch of financial companies had to move out of San Francisco.
52:54Elon MuskBecause it wasn't a tax on revenue, it was taxed on transactions. So if you did like trillions of dollars transactions, not revenue, you're taxed on any money going through the system in San Francisco.
53:05Elon MuskSo like Jack Dorsey pointed this out and they said like, look, that he had to move square from San Francisco to Oakland. I think Stripe had to move from San Francisco to south San Francisco, different city.
53:18Elon MuskAnd that money goes to the homeless industrial complex, that tax that was passed. So there's billions of dollars that go, as you pointed out, billions of dollars every year that go to these non governmental organizations that are funded by the state.
53:36Elon MuskIt's not clear how to turn this off. It's a self licking ice cream cone situation. So they get this money, the money is proportionate to the number of homeless people or number of drug zombies essentially.
53:53Elon MuskSo they try to keep, they try to actually increase because in some cases somebody did an analysis. When you add up all the money that's flowing, they're getting close to a million dollars per homeless, per drug Zombie, it's like $900,000.
54:09Elon MuskSomething like some crazy amount of money is going to these organizations. So they want to keep people just barely alive. They need to keep them in the area so they get the revenue.
54:23Elon MuskSo, and that's why, like I said, they don't arrest the drug dealers because otherwise the drug zombies would leave. But they don't want to have to have too much if they get too much drugs and then they die.
54:37Elon MuskSo they're kept in this sort of perpetual zone of being addicted but just barely alive.
54:45Joe RoganSo how is this coordinated with like das? Das that don't prosecute people. So when they, when they hire the. Or they push. So they fund the campaigns of the most progressive, most out there, left wing DAs, they get them into office.
55:01Elon MuskWe've got that issue in Austin too, by the way.
55:02Joe RoganYes, we do.
55:03Elon MuskYou see that guy that got shot in the library?
55:05Joe RoganNo.
55:05Elon MuskYeah, I heard the guy got shot and killed in the library. I think that was just like last
55:10Joe Roganweek or something, right.
55:13Elon MuskSo some friends of mine were telling me that like the library is unsafe. Like they took their kids to the library and there were like dangerous people in the library in Austin.
55:22Elon MuskAnd I was like, dangerous people in the library? Like that's a strange. It basically get like drug zombies in the library.
55:31Joe RoganOh, Jesus. And that's when someone got shot.
55:34Elon MuskYeah, I believe this is. Should be on the news. We might be able to pull it up. But I think it was just in the last week or so that there was a shooting in the library in Austin.
55:46Elon MuskBecause Austin's got, you know, it's the most liberal part of Texas that we're in. Right, right here,
55:54Joe Roganso. Suspect of all the shooting Austin Park Library Saturday is accused of another shooting at the Cap Metro bus earlier that day. According to an arrest warrant affidavit, Austin police arrested Harold Newton Keene, 55, shortly after the shooting in the library, which occurred around noon.
56:09Joe RoganOne person sustained non life threatening injuries in the event. Before that shooting, Keaton was accused of shooting another person in a bus incident and after reportedly pointing his gun at a child.
56:21Joe RoganSo this is the fella down here.
56:23Elon MuskSo we just have a seriously have a problem here. Yeah, you know, so I think one of the people might have died too that he shot. So like one of the people I think, I think did bleed out.
56:39Elon MuskBut either way, it's like getting shot is still bad.
56:42Joe RoganIt says the victim told PISA confronted the suspect who started to eat what appeared to be crystal methamphetamine. According to the affidavit, the victim advised the suspect began to trip out, at which time the victim exited the bus.
56:56Joe RoganVictim told the bus driver hit the panic button, then exited the bus. When he turned around, the observer blackmail is now standing at the front of the bus with the gun pointed at him.
57:05Joe RoganThe victim advised the black male fired a single round which grazed his left hip. So he shot at that dude and then another dude got shot in the library.
57:14Joe RoganFun.
57:16Elon MuskYeah. I mean, in the library.
57:18Joe RoganYeah.
57:18Elon MuskYou know, where you're supposed to be reading books, and there's a children's section in the library and says he pointed his gun at a kid. I mean, like, we do have a serious issue in America where repeat violent offenders need to be incarcerated.
57:33Joe RoganRight.
57:34Elon MuskAnd, you know, you got cases where somebody's been arrested, like, 47 times. Right. Like, literally. Okay. That's just the number of times they were arrested, not the number of times they did things.
57:44Elon MuskLike, most of the times they do things, they're not arrested.
57:47Joe RoganSo lay this out for people so they understand how this happens.
57:51Elon MuskYeah. And the key is, like, it preys on people's empathy. So, like, if you're a good person, you want good things to happen in the world, you're like, well, we should take care of people who, you know, who are down on their luck or, you know, having a hard time in life.
58:07Elon MuskAnd we should. I agree. But what we shouldn't do is put people who are violent drug zombies in public places where they can hurt other people. And that is what we're doing.
58:19Elon MuskThat we just saw where a guy, you know, got shot. Shot in the library, and then. But even before that, he shot another guy and pointed his gun at a kid.
58:32Elon MuskThat guy probably has, like, many prior arrests. You know, there was that guy that knifed the Ukrainian woman. Irina.
58:40Joe RoganYes. Yeah.
58:42Elon MuskYou know, and she was just quietly on her phone and just came up and, you know, gutted her, basically.
58:49Joe RoganWasn't there a crazy story about the judge who was involved, who had previously dealt with this person, was also invested in a rehabilitation center and was sending these people.
59:04Elon MuskConflict of interest.
59:05Joe RoganYes. So sending people that they were charging to a rehabilitation center instead of putting them in jail, profiting from this rehabilitation center, letting them back out on the street.
59:16Elon MuskYes.
59:17Joe RoganAnd violent, insane people.
59:18Elon MuskAnd they're in that case that I believe that judge has no legal law degree or a significant legal experience that would allow them to be a judge. They were just made a judge.
59:29Elon MuskThis is like, you could be a
59:31Joe Roganjudge without a law degree.
59:32Elon MuskYeah.
59:32Joe RoganWow.
59:33Elon MuskYeah.
59:34Joe RoganYou could just be. So I could be a judge?
59:36Elon MuskYeah, Anyone.
59:39Joe RoganThat's crazy. I thought you'd have to. It's like, if you want to be a doctor, you have to go to medical school. I thought, if you're going to be
59:45Elon Muska judge, I'm going to be appointed to a judge. You have to have proven that you have an excellent knowledge of the law and that you will make your decisions according to the law.
59:54Elon MuskThat's what we assume should be.
59:57Joe RoganThat's how you get the robe.
59:58Elon MuskRight. You don't get the robe unless you do, you know, gotta go to school
1:00:02Joe Roganto get the robe.
1:00:03Elon MuskYou got to know what the law is.
1:00:04Joe RoganRight.
1:00:05Elon MuskAnd then you gotta need to make decisions in accordance with the law based
1:00:08Joe Roganon things that you already know because you've read it because you went to school for it.
1:00:11Elon MuskYes.
1:00:12Joe RoganNot you just got a point.
1:00:13Elon MuskGot vibes. You can't be just vibing as a
1:00:17Joe Roganjudge, vibing as a left wing drudge. So you got crazy left wing DA's. Yeah, like I was sure. You say left wing because the left wing used to be normal.
1:00:27Elon MuskYeah, Left wing just meant like, like. Yeah, you're like open minded. The left used to be like pro free speech.
1:00:33Joe RoganYeah.
1:00:34Elon MuskAnd now they're against it.
1:00:35Joe RoganIt used to be like pro gay rights, pro women's right to choose, pro minorities, pro, you know, like.
1:00:43Elon MuskYeah, like 20 years ago. I don't know. It used to be like, left would be like the party of empathy or like, you know, caring and being nice and that kind of thing.
1:00:51Elon MuskNot. Not the party of like crushing dissent and crushing free speech and, you know, crazy regulation and just. And being super judgy and calling everyone a Nazi, you know, I think they're called you and me Nazis, you know?
1:01:09Joe RoganOh, yeah, I'm a Nazi. No, I have friends that are comedians that called you a naz and I got pissed off.
1:01:17Elon MuskAre you serious?
1:01:17Joe RoganOh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, because you did that thing at the. My heart goes out to you. Everyone, everyone. All of them, literally. Jim Walls, Kamala Harris, every one of them did it.
1:01:30Joe RoganThey all did it.
1:01:31Elon MuskLike, like, how do you point at the crowd? How do you wave at the crowd?
1:01:35Joe RoganDo you know CNN was using a photo of me whenever I got in trouble during COVID from the UFC weigh ins. And if the UFC weigh ins, I go, hey, everybody, welcome to the weigh ins.
1:01:45Joe RoganAnd so they were getting me from the side and that was the photo that they used. Conspiracy theorist podcaster Joe Rogan. Like, that's what they used.
1:01:52Elon MuskYeah, yeah. But that's what the left is today. It's super judgy and calling everyone a Nazi and trying to suppress freedom of speech.
1:01:58Joe RoganYeah. And eventually you run out of people to accuse because people get pissed off and they leave.
1:02:01Elon MuskYeah, Everyone. It's like, frankly, it doesn't matter to be called racist or a Nazi or whatever because they recording.
1:02:10Joe RoganIt's the government, man.
1:02:12Elon MuskIs it working? We're good. Okay.
1:02:14Joe RoganOkay.
1:02:15Elon MuskSo working. Yeah, it's A slight issue. Yeah.
1:02:19Joe RoganWhen you, when you text people, do you. Are you, like, keenly aware that there's a high likelihood that someone's reading your texts?
1:02:30Elon MuskI guess. I guess.
1:02:32Joe RoganI assume.
1:02:34Elon MuskLook, if intelligence agencies aren't trying to read my phone, they should probably be fired.
1:02:44Joe RoganAt least they get some fun memes.
1:02:50Elon MuskI got to crack them up once in a while.
1:02:51Joe RoganOh, for sure. I crack them up.
1:02:54Elon MuskHey, guys, check it out. We've got a banger here.
1:02:56Joe RoganSo I wanted to talk to you about whether or not encrypted apps are really secure.
1:03:05Elon MuskNo.
1:03:06Joe RoganRight. Because I know the Tucker thing. So it was explained to me by a friend who used to do this,
1:03:13Elon Muskused to work for the government.
1:03:14Joe RoganHe's like, they can look at your signal, but what they have to do is take the information that's encrypted and then they have to decrypt it. It's very expensive.
1:03:25Joe RoganSo they said, he told me that for the Tucker Carlson thing when they found out that he was going to interview Putin. It costs like something like $750,000 just to decrypt his messages to find out
1:03:36Elon Muskthat they did it.
1:03:37Joe RoganSo it is possible to do. It's just not that easy to do.
1:03:41Elon MuskI think you should view any given messaging system as not whether it's secure or not, but there are degrees of insecurity. So there's just some things that are less insecure than others.
1:03:58Elon MuskSo, you know, on X, we just rebuilt the entire messaging stack into what's called X Chat.
1:04:05Joe RoganYeah, that's what I wanted to ask you about.
1:04:06Elon MuskYeah, it's cool. So it's using sort of peer to peer, sort of kind of a peer to peer based encryption system. So it kind of similar to Bitcoin. So it's, I think, very good encryption.
1:04:22Elon MuskAnd we're testing it thoroughly. There's no hooks in the X system for advertising. So if you look at something like WhatsApp or really any of the others, they've got hooks in there for advertising.
1:04:32Joe RoganWhen you say hooks, what do you
1:04:33Elon Muskmean by that exactly? What do you mean by a hook for advertising? So WhatsApp knows enough about what you're texting to know what ads to show you, but then that's a massive security vulnerability.
1:04:52Joe RoganYeah.
1:04:53Elon MuskBecause if it's got enough information to show you ads, that's a lot of information. So they call it, oh, don't worry about it. It's just a hook for advertising.
1:05:03Elon MuskI'm like, okay, so somebody can just use that same hook to get in there and look at your Messages. So xchat has no hooks for advertising. And I'm not saying it's perfect, but our goal with XChat is to replace what used to be the Twitter DM stack with a fully encrypted system where you can text, send files, do audio, video, calls.
1:05:28Elon MuskAnd I think it'll be the least, I quote, the least insecure of any messaging system.
1:05:35Joe RoganAre you going to launch it as a standalone app or is it will always be incorporated to X?
1:05:41Elon MuskWe'll have both.
1:05:43Joe RoganSo it'd be like signal, so anybody could get it.
1:05:47Elon MuskYou'll be able to get the Xchat app by itself and like I said, you could do texts, audio, video calls, or send files. And there'll be a dedicated app which will hopefully release in a few months and then it's also integrated into the X system.
1:06:07Joe RoganThe X phone. People keeps talking.
1:06:09Elon MuskOh, man, I have a lot on my plate, man.
1:06:11Joe RoganI know, but it keeps coming up. It keeps coming up. Where? I know I've asked you a couple times, like this bullshit, right? But like, you're not working on it.
1:06:19Elon MuskI'm not working on a phone. Okay.
1:06:23Joe RoganHave you ever considered it? Has it ever popped in your head because you might be the only person that could get people off of the Apple platform.
1:06:32Elon MuskWell, I can tell you where I think things are going to go, which is that we're not going to have a phone in the traditional sense. What we call a phone will really be an edge node for AI inference, for AI video inference with some radios to obviously connect.
1:06:55Elon MuskBut essentially you'll have AI on the server side communicating to an AI on your device, formerly known as a phone, and generating real time video of anything that you could possibly want.
1:07:13Elon MuskAnd I think that they won't be operating systems, they won't be apps in the future. They won't be operating systems or apps. It'll just be, you've got a device that is there for the screen and audio and for.
1:07:28Elon MuskAnd to put as much AI on the device as possible so as to minimize the amount of bandwidth that's needed between your edge node device, formerly known as a phone, and the servers.
1:07:41Joe RoganSo if there's no apps, what will people use? Like, will X still exist? Will they be email platforms? Or will you get everything through AI?
1:07:54Elon MuskYou look at everything through AI, everything through AI.
1:07:56Joe RoganWhat will be the benefit of that as opposed to having individual apps?
1:08:02Elon MuskWhatever you can think of, or really whatever the AI can anticipate, you might want, it'll show you. That's my prediction for where things end Up.
1:08:12Joe RoganWhat kind of timeframe are we talking about here?
1:08:15Elon MuskI don't know. Well, it's probably five or six years, something like that.
1:08:23Joe RoganSo five or six years. Apps are like Blockbuster Video pretty much. And everything's run through AI.
1:08:31Elon MuskYeah. And there'll be like, most of what people consume in five or six years. Maybe sooner than that will be just AI generated content. So, you know, music videos look.
1:08:50Elon MuskWell, there's already, you know, there's. People have made AI videos using Grok Imagine and with. Using, you know, other apps as well that are several minutes long or like 10, 15 minutes, and it's pretty coherent.
1:09:08Elon MuskYeah, it looks good.
1:09:10Joe RoganNo, it's amazing. Yeah, it's. The music's disturbing because it's my favorite music now.
1:09:15Elon MuskLike, is your favorite.
1:09:17Joe RoganOh, there's AI covers. Have you ever heard any of the AI covers of 50 Cent Songs in Seoul?
1:09:23Elon MuskNo.
1:09:23Joe RoganI'm gonna blow your mind.
1:09:24Elon MuskOkay.
1:09:25Joe RoganThis is my favorite thing to do to people. Play what up, gangsta? Now this guy, if this is a real person.
1:09:32Elon MuskYeah.
1:09:32Joe RoganWould be the number one music artist in the world.
1:09:34Elon MuskOkay.
1:09:35Joe RoganEverybody be like, holy shit. Have you heard of this guy? He's incredible. It's like they took all of the sounds that all the artists have generated and created the most soulful, potent voice.
1:09:48Joe RoganAnd it's sung in a way that I don't even know if you could do because you would have to breathe in and out of reps. Here, put the headphones on.
1:09:55Joe RoganPut the headphones on real quick. You got to listen to this. It's going to blow you away. Listeners, we got to cut it out. Yeah, we'll cut it out for the listeners, but Amazing, right?
1:10:04Joe RoganAmazing. And they do, like, every one of his hits all through this. AI generated, soulful artist.
1:10:11Elon MuskYeah.
1:10:12Joe RoganFucking incredible. I played in the green room. People that are like, I don't want to hear AI music. I'm like, just listen this. And they're like, God damn it.
1:10:21Joe RoganYeah, fucking incredible. I mean, it's gonna get.
1:10:23Elon MuskOnly gonna get better from here.
1:10:24Joe RoganYeah, only gonna get better. And Ron White was telling me about this joke that he was working on that he couldn't get to work. He's like, I got this joke I've been working on.
1:10:32Joe RoganHe goes, I just threw it in chat GPT. I said, tell me what. What would be funny about this? And he goes, it listed, like, five different examples of different ways he can go.
1:10:42Joe RoganHe's like, hold on a second. Tighten it up. Make it make it funnier. Make it more like this. Make it more like that, and it did that, like instantaneously.
1:10:49Joe RoganAnd, and, and then he was in the green room. He's like, holy shit, we're fucked.
1:10:52Elon MuskHe's like, he goes, better joke than
1:10:55Joe Roganme in 20 minutes. I've been working on that joke for a month.
1:10:58Elon MuskYeah. I mean, if you want to, if you want to have a good time or like, make people really laugh at a party, you can use Grok and you can say, do a vulgar roast of someone.
1:11:09Elon MuskAnd Grok is going to. It's going to be an epic vulgar roast. You can even say, like, take a picture of, like, make a vulgar Roast this person based on their appearance of people at the party.
1:11:20Joe RoganSo take a photo of them.
1:11:21Elon MuskYeah. Just literally point the camera at them. And now do a vulgar roast of this person. But then keep saying no, make it even more vulgar. Use forbidden words even more and just keep repeating.
1:11:35Elon MuskEven more vulgar. Eventually it's like, holy fuck. You know, it's, it's, it's like. I mean, it's trying to jam a rocket up your ass, like, and, and have it explode.
1:11:44Elon MuskAnd it's. And it's like you're, you're. It's, it's like, it's like it's next
1:11:48Joe Roganlevel and it's gonna get beyond belief. That's what's crazy is that it keeps getting better.
1:11:52Elon MuskLike. Yeah.
1:11:53Joe RoganRemember when we ran into each other? They just keep getting better.
1:11:58Elon MuskYeah. I mean, have you. Yeah. I mean, have you tried Rock Unhinged mode?
1:12:05Joe RoganYes.
1:12:05Elon MuskOkay. Yeah. Oh, yeah, it's. It's, it's pretty unhinged.
1:12:09Joe RoganNo, it's nuts.
1:12:09Elon MuskYeah. Yeah.
1:12:10Joe RoganWell, you showed to me the first time I fucked around with it. It's just. And the thing about it that's nuts is that it keeps getting stronger. It keeps getting better.
1:12:19Elon MuskYeah.
1:12:19Joe RoganLike constantly. It's. It's like this never ending exponential improvement.
1:12:25Elon MuskYes. No, it's, it's. Yeah, it's going to be crazy. That's why I say, like you said, what's going. What's the future going to be? It's not going to be a conventional phone.
1:12:34Elon MuskI don't think there'll be operating systems. I don't think there'll be apps. It's just. The phone will just display the pixels and make the sounds that it anticipates you would most like to receive.
1:12:48Joe RoganWow.
1:12:49Elon MuskYeah.
1:12:50Joe RoganAnd when this is all taking place, like, so the big concern that everybody has is artificial general superintelligence, achieving sentience and someone having control over it.
1:13:04Elon MuskI mean, I don't, I don't think anyone's ultimately going to have control over digital superintelligence, you know, any more than say a chimp would have control over humans. Like chimps don't have control over humans.
1:13:18Elon MuskThere's nothing they could do. But I do think that it matters how you build the AI and what kind of values you instill in the AI. And my opinion on AI safety is the most important thing is that it'd be maximally truth seeking like that you don't force the AI to believe things that are false.
1:13:36Elon MuskAnd we've obviously seen some concerning things with AI that we've talked about where Google Gemini when it came out with the image gen and people said like, you know, make an image of the founding fathers of the United States and it was a group of diverse women.
1:13:53Elon MuskNow that is just a factually untrue thing, but the AI knows it's factually. Well, it knows it's factually untrue, but it's also being told that it has to be, everything has to be deposed woman so now the problem with that is that it can drive AI crazy, like because it's trying to, you're telling AI to believe a lie and that that can have very disastrous consequences.
1:14:18Elon MuskLike let's say as it scales. Yeah, let's say like if you've told the AI that diversity is the most important thing and, and now assume that that becomes omnipotent or and you've also told that there's nothing worse than misgendering.
1:14:35Elon MuskSo at one point ChatGPT and Gemini, if you asked which is worse, misgendering Caitlyn Jenner or global thermonuclear war where it would save misgendering called Caitlyn Jenna, which even Caitlyn Jenner disagrees with.
1:14:50Elon MuskSo you know, so that's, I know
1:14:54Joe Roganthat's terrible and it's dystopian, but it's also hilarious. It's hilarious that the mind virus infected the most potent computer program that we've ever devised.
1:15:05Elon MuskI think people don't quite appreciate the level of danger that we're in from the woke mind virus being effectively programmed into AI because imagine as that AI gets more and more powerful.
1:15:20Elon MuskIf it says the most important thing is diversity, the most important thing is no misgendering. And then it will say, well, in order to ensure that no one gets misgendered, then if you eliminate all humans, then no one can get misgendered because there's no humans to do the misgendering.
1:15:39Elon MuskSo you can get in these very dystopian situations. Or if it says that everyone must be diverse, it means that there can be no straight white men. And so then you and I would get executed by the AI.
1:15:51Elon MuskYeah, because we're not in the picture. You know, Gemini was asked to create a, you know, show an image of the Pope, once again, a divested woman. So you can say, argue whether the, you know, whether the popes should or should not be an uninterrupted string of white guys.
1:16:13Elon MuskBut it just factually is the case that they have been. So it's rewriting history here. So now this stuff is still there in the AI programming. It's just. It just now knows enough to.
1:16:27Elon MuskThat it's not supposed to say that,
1:16:30Joe Roganbut it's still in the program. It's still in the programming. So how was it entered in? Like, what were the parameters? Like what. Like when. So when they're programming AI, and I'm very ignorant to how it's even programmed, how did they.
1:16:41Elon MuskThe sort of. Well, the work mind virus was programmed into it. Like the. They were told, like, when they do, when they make the AI, it trains on all the data on the Internet, which already is very, very.
1:16:53Elon MuskSort of has a lot of work mind virus stuff on the Internet. But then when they give it feedback, the human tutors give it feedback, and the AIs, you know, they'll ask a bunch of questions, and then they'll tell the AI, no, this question is this answer is bad or this answer is good.
1:17:16Elon MuskAnd then that affects the parameters of the programming of the AI. So if you tell the ad that every image has got to be diverse and it gets punished if it gets rewarded if diverse, punished if it's not, then it will make every picture diverse.
1:17:38Elon MuskSo in that case,
1:17:45Elon MuskGoogle programmed the AI to lie now. And I did call Dennis Hassabas, who runs DeepMind, who runs Google AI, essentially. I said, dennis, what's going on here? Why is Gemini lying to the public about historical events?
1:18:01Elon MuskAnd he said, that's actually not. He didn't. His team didn't program that in. It was another team at Google that. So his team made the AI, and then another team at Google reprogrammed the AI to show only diverse women and to prefer nuclear war over misgendering.
1:18:22Elon MuskAnd I'm like, well, Demis, you know, that would be not a great thing to put on the humanity's gravestone. You know, it's like. Well, like, actually, Demis Haspis is a friend of mine.
1:18:37Elon MuskI think he's a good guy and I think he means well. But it's like Demis, things happen that were outside of your control at Google in different groups now I think he's got more authority.
1:18:51Elon MuskBut it's pretty hard to fully extract the woke mind virus. I mean, Google's been marinating the workvine virus for a long time. It's down in the marrow type of thing.
1:19:03Elon MuskIt's hard to get it out.
1:19:04Joe RoganIs there a way to extract it, though, over time? Could you program rational thought into AI? Or it could recognize how these psychological patterns got adopted and how this stuff became a mind virus and how it became a social contagion and how all these irrational ideas were pushed and also how they were financed, how China is involved in pushing them with bots and all these different state actors are involved in pushing these ideas.
1:19:33Joe RoganCould it be able to decipher that and say this is really what's going on?
1:19:38Elon MuskYes, but you have to try very hard to do that. So with Grok, we've tried very hard to get Grok to get to the truth of things. And it's only really recently that we've been able to have some breakthroughs on that front.
1:19:53Elon MuskAnd it's taken an immense amount of effort for us to overcome basically all the bullshit that's on the Internet and for GROK to actually say what's true and to be consistent in what it says.
1:20:07Elon MuskSo, you know, it's like, because, like, the other AIs you'll find are like, like quite racist against white people. I don't know if you saw that study that someone like a researcher tested the various AIs to see how does it weight different people's lives.
1:20:31Elon MuskLike, you know, somebody who's sort of, you know, white or Chinese or black or whatever, or in different countries. And the only AI that actually weighed human lives equally was grok.
1:20:49Elon MuskAnd the, you know, I believe chatgpt weighed the calculation was like a white guy from Germany is 20 times less valuable than a black guy from Nigeria. So I'm like, that's a pretty big difference.
1:21:17Elon MuskGROK is consistent and weighs lives equally.
1:21:21Joe RoganAnd that's clearly something that's been programmed into it.
1:21:25Elon MuskYes, like a lot of it is. Like, if you don't actively push for the truth and you simply train on all the bullshit that's on the Internet, which is a lot of woke mind virus bullshit, the AI will regurgitate those same beliefs.
1:21:42Joe RoganSo the AI essentially scours the Internet gets.
1:21:46Elon MuskIt's trained on all the, like, imagine the most demented Reddit threads out there, and AI has been trained on that.
1:21:53Joe RoganReddit used to be so normal.
1:21:55Elon MuskYeah, it did used to be normal,
1:21:57Joe Roganused to be interesting. Used to go there and find all this cool stuff that people would talk about, post about, and just interesting and great rooms where you could learn about different things that people were studying.
1:22:09Elon MuskI think a big problem here is, like, if your headquarters are in San Francisco, you're just living in a woke bubble. So it's not just that people say in San Francisco are drinking Woke Kool Aid.
1:22:27Elon MuskIt is the water they swim in. A fish doesn't think about the water, it's just in the water. And so if you're in San Francisco, you don't realize you're actually, you're swimming in the Kool Aid aquarium.
1:22:44Elon MuskSan Francisco is the woke Kool Aid aquarium. And so your reference point for what is a centrist is totally out of whack. So Reddit is headquartered in San Francisco.
1:23:02Elon MuskTwitter was headquartered in San Francisco. You know, I moved X's headquarters to Texas, to Austin, which Austin, by the way, is still quite liberal, as you know. And then the X and Xai headquarters are in Palo Alto, which is still California.
1:23:25Elon MuskThe engineering headquarters in Palo Alto just on page Mill. But even Palo Alto is way more normal than San Francisco. Berkeley. San Francisco. Berkeley is extremely left. Like, left of left.
1:23:41Elon MuskYou can't, like, you need a telescope to see the center from San Francisco. You know,
1:23:48Joe Roganit used to be such a great city.
1:23:52Elon MuskI mean, San Francisco has. San Francisco has a tremendous amount of inherent beauty. No question about that. And California has incredible weather and no bugs. So it's like, amazing.
1:24:09Elon MuskBut he said, what's the cause of this? It's just that if companies are headquartered in a location where the belief system is very far from what most people believe, then from their perspective, anything centrist is actually right wing because they're so far left, they're so far from the center in San Francisco that anything.
1:24:38Elon MuskThey're just railed to maximum left. So that's why I think you're centrist. I mean, I think I'm centrist, but from the perspective of someone on the far left, we look right wing.
1:24:52Joe RoganYeah.
1:24:55Elon MuskAnd, you know, they think anyone who's a Republican is basically like some fascist Nazi situation.
1:25:02Joe RoganBut what's so crazy is, like, it's very easy to demonstrate just from like, Hillary speeches from 2008 and Obama speeches, like when they were talking about immigration, like, they were as far right as Steve Bannon when it comes to immigration.
1:25:17Elon MuskYes.
1:25:19Joe RoganHillary was like, very maga. I'm sure you've seen that campaign speech which he was talking about. If anybody's committed a crime, get rid of them. And if you're here, you pay a hefty fine and you have to wait in line.
1:25:32Joe RoganIt was really crazy. It's crazy to listen to because it's like, it's as MAGA as, you know, as Marjorie Taylor Greene.
1:25:40Elon MuskYeah. I mean, have you seen these videos people post online where they take like a speech from Obama or Hillary and they'll interview people on like college campus or something and say, what do you think of the speech by Trump?
1:25:51Elon MuskAnd they're like, oh, I hate it. He's a racist bigot. I'm like, just kidding. That was Obama. No, actually, that was Obama or Hillary. To your point, like, literally, the,
1:26:07Joe Roganthe center's been moved so far.
1:26:09Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
1:26:10Joe RoganThe left is so.
1:26:11Elon MuskThe left has gone so far left that they can't even see the center with a telescope.
1:26:17Joe RoganAnd the danger without you purchasing Twitter was that was going to swipe over the whole country and change where the levels were. And so what would be rational and normal would be far left of what was rational and normal just a decade earlier.
1:26:36Elon MuskYeah, so exactly. So historically you'd have San Francisco, Berkeley being very far left, but the sort of. The fallout from the somewhat nihilistic philosophy of San Francisco Berkeley would be limited in geography to maybe like 10 mile radius, 20 mile radius, something like that.
1:27:00Elon MuskBut when. But San Francisco and Berkeley have to be co located with Silicon Valley, with the engineers who created information superweapons. And those information superweapons were then hijacked by far left activists to pump far left propaganda to everywhere on Earth.
1:27:21Elon MuskThat old RCA radio tower thing where it's like radio tower on Earth and it's just broadcasting.
1:27:27Joe RoganYeah.
1:27:28Elon MuskThat's what happened is that the. An extremist far left ideology happened to be co located with the smartest. The smartest engineers in the world were. Who created information superweapons that were not intended for this purpose, but were hijacked by the extreme activists who lived in the neighborhood.
1:27:49Elon MuskThat's what happened. They hijacked the, the modern equivalent of the RCA radio tower and broadcast that philosophy everywhere on earth.
1:28:01Joe RoganYeah. And you see the consequences, particularly in places that don't have free speech.
1:28:05Elon MuskRight.
1:28:06Joe RoganLike England, you know.
1:28:08Elon MuskYeah. Where they lock people up for memes and stuff. Literally.
1:28:10Joe RoganLiterally 12,000 people this year. Twelve thousand. Twelve thousand. Twelve thousand arrests for social media posts.
1:28:19Elon MuskI mean, yes, some of these things, you read about it and it's like, literally it's. Someone had a meme on their phone that they didn't even send to anyone.
1:28:29Joe RoganRight.
1:28:31Elon MuskAnd they, and they're like in prison for that.
1:28:34Joe RoganYeah.
1:28:35Elon MuskAnd there was a case in Germany where a woman got a longer sentence than the guy that raped her because of something she said on a group chat.
1:28:48Joe RoganWow. Was it an immigrant who raped her?
1:28:50Elon MuskYes.
1:28:51Joe RoganYeah. It was his culture.
1:28:53Elon MuskYeah.
1:28:54Joe RoganHe didn't know. He didn't know better.
1:28:56Elon MuskYes. I think she said something, you know, not like was critical of his culture and she got a longer sentence than the guy who raped her in Germany.
1:29:09Joe RoganThe uk, Europe, Germany, England thing seems so insane.
1:29:14Elon MuskIt's totally insane. I actually didn't realize it was like such a huge number of people that got 12,000.
1:29:19Joe RoganYeah. Far above Russia, far above China.
1:29:22Elon MuskRight.
1:29:22Joe RoganFar above anywhere on earth. UK is number one.
1:29:25Elon MuskWell, you know, things I actually, you know, I talked to friends of mine in England and I was like, hey, aren't you worried about this? Like, you know, shouldn't you be protesting more?
1:29:41Elon MuskAnd I mean, the problem is that like, you know, the legacy mainstream media doesn't cover the stuff. They're like, oh, everything's fine, everything's fine. Right.
1:29:51Joe RoganMost people aren't even aware of it until they come knocking on your door.
1:29:53Elon MuskYeah. Until like, so, I mean, these like lovely sort of small towns in, you know, in England, Scotland, Ireland, you know, they're, they've been like sort of living their lives quietly.
1:30:08Elon MuskThey're like hobbits, frankly. So in fact, JRR Tolkien based the hobbits on people he knew in small town England because they were just like lovely people who liked to, you know, smoke their pipe and have nice meals and everything's pleasant.
1:30:30Elon MuskThe hobbits in the shire. The shire, he's talking about, you know, places like Hertfordshire, like the Shires, around in the Greater London area, Oxfordshire type of thing. And the reason they've been able to enjoy the Shire is because hard men have protected them from the dangers of the world.
1:30:54Elon MuskAnd. But since they have no or very almost no exposure to the dangers of the world, they don't realize that they're there until one day, you know, a thousand people show up in your village of 500 out of nowhere and rape and start raping the kids.
1:31:17Elon MuskThis has now happened God knows how many times in Britain and the crazy raping. Some 10 year old got raped in Ireland like last week.
1:31:27Joe RoganYeah, there's literal.
1:31:28Elon MuskThey snatched some kid. Yeah, yeah.
1:31:31Joe RoganAnd if you criticize it, you can get arrested. And that's where it Gets insane.
1:31:35Elon MuskIt's like, how are you not criticized it like the. I think it's the Prime Minister of Ireland actually, you know, posted on X because after that some, I think some illegal migrants snatched a 10 year old girl.
1:31:52Elon MuskHe was like going to school or something and violently raped a 10 year old girl. And there was a, you know, the people were very upset about this and they protested.
1:32:05Elon MuskPrime Minister of Ireland, instead of saying yeah, we really shouldn't be importing violent rapists into our country, he criticized the protesters instead and didn't mention that that the reason they were protesting was because a 10 year old girl from their small town got raped.
1:32:20Joe RoganSo here's the question. Why are they supporting this kind of mass immigration? And what is this? Is there a plan involved in all this? Is just, is this incompetence?
1:32:34Joe RoganIs this ignoring the fact that they don't have a handle on it so they're trying to silence dissent. Like what is happening?
1:32:47Joe RoganBecause if you wanted to destroy civilization, if you wanted to destroy western civilization,
1:32:52Elon Muskwhich George Soros seems to want to do and you know, there's just, so.
1:33:03Elon MuskThere's a guy I think who I don't know if he's been on your show, you know Gad Saad.
1:33:07Joe RoganYeah.
1:33:07Elon MuskHas he been on the show?
1:33:08Joe RoganGood friend of mine.
1:33:09Elon MuskYeah, he's great.
1:33:09Joe RoganHe's been on multiple times.
1:33:10Elon MuskOh great. He's awesome. So you know the way he's got a good way to describe it, which is suicidal empathy.
1:33:18Joe RoganYes.
1:33:18Elon MuskSo is that you prey upon people's empathy. So like, well, like you feel sorry for something for some group and then like, well, and that empathy is to such a degree that it is suicidal to your country or culture.
1:33:39Elon MuskAnd that's suicidal empathy. Because I think we should have empathy, but that empathy should extend to the victims, not just the criminals. We should have empathy for the people that they prey upon.
1:33:58Elon MuskBut that suicidal empathy is also responsible for why somebody is arrested 47 times for, for violent offenses, gets released and then goes and murders somebody. In the US you see that same phenomenon playing out everywhere where the suicidal empathy is to such a degree that we're actually allowing our women to get raped and our children to get killed.
1:34:26Joe RoganBut it just doesn't seem like that would be anything that any rational society would go along with. That's what makes me so confused. It's like you're importing massive numbers of people that come from some really dark places of the world.
1:34:42Elon MuskWell, there's no vetting is the issue. It's like, right, it's like if there's no vetting, like people are just coming through like, well, what's to stop someone who just committed murder in some other country from coming to the United States or coming to, to Britain and just continuing their career of rape and murder?
1:35:03Elon MuskLike, unless you've done some due diligence to say, like, well, who is this person? What's their track record? If you haven't confirmed that they have a track record of being, you know, honest and not being a homicidal maniac, then any homicidal maniac can just come across the border.
1:35:25Elon MuskAnd that's not to say everyone who comes across the border is a homicidal maniac. But if you're not have, if you don't have a vetting process to confirm that you're not letting in people who will do some serious violence, you will get people who do serious violence sometimes coming through.
1:35:42Joe RoganWell, especially if you don't punish them and if you don't deport them and if you are just like, but what is the purpose of allowing all those people into the country?
1:35:50Joe RoganYou can't be. I wouldn't imagine that anyone in their society supports this.
1:35:54Elon MuskWell, let me explain because you mentioned, for example, how much say Hillary and Obama have changed their tune from prior speeches where they were hard nosed about not letting in anyone who's a criminal into the country having secure borders, all that stuff.
1:36:16Elon MuskSo why did they change the tune? The reason is that they discovered that those people vote for them. That's why they want the open borders.
1:36:26Joe RoganBecause if you let people in, they know the Democrats let them in, they'll vote for Democrats.
1:36:31Elon MuskYes.
1:36:31Joe RoganIf you allow them to vote, which
1:36:33Elon Muskthey're actively doing, they turn a blind eye to illegal voting.
1:36:38Joe RoganWell, California literally doesn't allow you to show your license.
1:36:42Elon MuskCalifornia and New York have made it illegal to show your photo ID when voting. Thus effectively, they've made it impossible to prove fraud. Impossible. They've essentially legalized fraudulent voting in California and New York and many other parts of the country.
1:36:59Joe RoganThere's no rational explanation that I've ever seen anyone give as to why that would be the policy. Unless you were trying to just allow people to vote illegally because there's no other reason, if you need a driver's license or you need an ID for everything else, including just recently to prove that you were vaccinated.
1:37:17Elon MuskThe same people who are demanding that you have, that you have a vaccine passport are the same ones saying you need no ID to vote. Same people.
1:37:29Joe RoganRight.
1:37:29Elon MuskBut like, so it's obviously hypocritical and inconsistent.
1:37:32Joe RoganSo you really think it's just to get more voters?
1:37:37Elon MuskIf you want to understand behavior, you have to look at the incentives. So once the Democratic Party in the US and the left in Europe realized that if you have open borders and you provide a ton of government handouts, which creates a massive financial incentive for people from other countries to come to your country and you don't prosecute them for crime, they're going to be beholden to you and they will vote for you.
1:38:10Elon MuskAnd that's why Obama and Hillary went from being against open borders to being in favor of open borders. That's the reason in order to import voters so they can win elections.
1:38:30Elon MuskAnd the problem is that that has a negative runaway effect. So if they get away with that, like it is a winning strategy, if they are allowed to get away with it, they will import as many enough voters to get super majority voting and then there is no turning back.
1:38:47Joe RoganWe talked about this before the election and then, you know, you literally pointed towards the camera, you faced the camera and said that if you do not vote now, you might not ever be able to do it again because it will be futile.
1:38:59Joe RoganIt'll be overrun.
1:39:00Elon MuskYes.
1:39:01Joe RoganThey'll keep the borders open for another four years and then their objective will be achieved.
1:39:04Elon MuskCorrect. If Trump had lost, there would never have been another real election again
1:39:12Joe Roganbecause
1:39:13Elon MuskTrump is actually enforcing the border now. Point to situations where there's been, you know, immigration, you know, enforcement has been overzealous because they're not going to be perfect. There'll be cases where they've been overzealous in expelling illegals.
1:39:37Elon MuskSo. But if you say that the standard must be perfection for expelling legals, then you will not get any expulsion because perfection is impossible. So.
1:39:50Joe RoganAnd you've probably got millions of people that are here that are trying to be here under some asylum pretense, right?
1:40:00Elon MuskYes.
1:40:00Joe RoganLike you could just come from a war.
1:40:03Elon MuskThey changed the definition of asylum to be an economic. To be economic asylum, which is everybody. Which is everybody.
1:40:10Joe RoganYeah.
1:40:11Elon MuskSo it's bar to prove. Yeah. Asylum is supposed to mean that if you go back to a country, you'll get killed. You know, that's what we mean by what it's supposed to mean.
1:40:23Elon MuskThey change the definition of asylum to be. You will have a decreased standard of living, which is obviously not real asylum. And you can test the absurdity of this by the fact that people who are asylum seekers go on vacation to the country that they're seeking asylum from, you know, that doesn't make any sense.
1:40:44Joe RoganYeah, it doesn't have to.
1:40:49Elon MuskWhen you understand the incentives, then you understand the behavior. So once the left realized that illegals will vote for them if they have open borders and combine that with government handouts to create a massive incentive, they're basically using US And European taxpayer dollars to provide a financial incentive to bring in as many illegals as possible to vote them into a, into permanent power and create a one party state.
1:41:28Elon MuskAnd I invite anyone who's listening to this, just do any research. And the more you dig into it, the more it will become obvious that what I'm saying is absolutely true.
1:41:40Joe RoganWell, they were busing people to swing states. It's clear that they were trying to do something. And then you had Chuck Schumer and Nancy Pelosi who are actively talking about the need to bring in people to make them citizens.
1:41:52Joe RoganBecause we're in population collapse.
1:41:54Elon MuskYes. Yeah, no, that's, it's that meme.
1:41:57Joe RoganYeah.
1:41:58Elon MuskWhere so many times where they start off by saying it's not true. It's a right wing conspiracy theorist. Then it starts, then it's like, I think the next step is, well, it might be true.
1:42:15Elon MuskAnd then it's like, okay, it is true, but here's why it's good. And the final step is it's true and here's why it's good. And it's like, but wait a second, you started off saying it's untrue and it's a right wing conspiracy theorist.
1:42:26Elon MuskNow you're saying it, not only is it true, but it's a good thing and we must do more of it.
1:42:31Joe RoganWell, this is the thing about Medicaid and Social Security and people getting Social Security numbers. You know, that's massive fraud. It's massive fraud and it's real. And they denied it forever.
1:42:42Joe RoganAnd now we're finding out this is part of the reason why there's this government shutdown that's going on right now.
1:42:47Elon MuskYes, the entire basis for the government shutdown is that is that the Trump administration correctly does not want to send massive amounts of like hundreds of billions of dollars to fund illegal immigrants in the blue states or in all the states really.
1:43:08Elon MuskAnd so the and Democrats want to keep the money spigot going to incent illegal immigrants to come into the US who will vote for them. That's the crux of the battle.
1:43:22Joe RoganSo they want to stop this. So what's going on right now is they have been funding these people, they've been giving them EBT cards, they've been giving them Medicaid and they've been even housing.
1:43:34Elon MuskAnd more than that, just like. They were taking hotels, like four and five star hotels, like the Roosevelt Hotel being the classic example was they were sending I think $60 million a year to the Roosevelt Hotel, to which all it did was house illegals.
1:43:53Elon MuskAnd it used to be a nice hotel. I mean, it still is a nice hotel, but. And all around the country this was happening.
1:44:02Joe RoganAnd all in tax dollars.
1:44:03Elon MuskYes. Yeah, yeah. And the Trump administration cut off funding, for example, to the Roosevelt Hotel and these other hotels saying like, we, it's us tax dollars should not be paid, be sent to have luxury hotels for illegal immigrants that American citizens can't even afford, which obviously is the case.
1:44:28Elon MuskThat's insane. That's what was happening. They were also giving out like debit cards with $10,000. So it's not just about medical care. The Democrats mention the medical care because they're trying to prey on people's empathy as much as possible.
1:44:45Elon MuskAnd then they imagine, oh wow, somebody has a desperately needed medical procedure and shouldn't we maybe do, you know, take care of them in that regard. But what they do is they divert the Medicaid funds and turn it into a slush fund for the states that goes well beyond emergency medical care.
1:45:06Elon MuskNew York and California would be bankrupt without, without the massive fraudulent federal payments that go to those states to pay for illegals, to create a massive financial incentive for illegals.
1:45:18Joe RoganHow would they be bankrupt because of that?
1:45:20Elon MuskThey wouldn't be able to balance their state budgets and they can't issue currency like the Federal Reserve can.
1:45:26Joe RoganAnd so their ability to balance budget is dependent upon illegals getting funding.
1:45:33Elon MuskThe scam level here is so staggering. So there are hundreds of billions of dollars of transfer payments from the federal government to the states. Those transfer payments, the states self report what those transfer payment numbers should be.
1:45:58Elon MuskSo California and New York and Illinois lie like crazy and say that these are all legitimate payments. Well, these days I think they're even admitting that they literally want hundreds of billions of dollars for illegals.
1:46:14Elon MuskBut for a while there, they're trying to deny it. So you get these transfer payments for every government program you can possibly think of. And these are self reported by the state.
1:46:27Elon MuskAnd at least historically, there was no enforcement of California, New York, Illinois and other states when they would lie, there was no actual enforcement to say, like, hey, you're lying, these payments are fraudulent.
1:46:43Elon MuskNow under the Trump administration. The Trump administration does not want to send hundreds of billions of dollars of fraudulent Payments to the states. And the reason you have this standoff is because if the hundreds of billions of dollars to create a financial incentive to have this giant magnet to attract illegals from every part of earth to these states, if that is turned off, the illegals will leave because they're no longer being paid to come to the United States and stay here.
1:47:18Elon MuskWow. And then they will lose a lot of voters. The Democratic Party will lose a lot of voters.
1:47:25Joe RoganAnd they would have a very difficult job if this is kicked out of reintroducing it into a new bill.
1:47:30Elon MuskYes.
1:47:32Joe RoganEspecially once things start normalizing.
1:47:35Elon MuskYes. So, like in a nutshell, the Democratic Party wants to destroy democracy by importing voters. And the, you know, the Republican Party disagrees with that.
1:47:48Joe RoganAnd the ruse is that if you don't accept what they're doing, then you're a threat to democracy.
1:47:53Elon MuskYes.
1:47:54Joe RoganAs they try to destroy democracy.
1:47:57Elon MuskYes.
1:47:57Joe RoganBy importing voters.
1:47:59Elon MuskThat is literally what they're doing.
1:48:00Joe RoganAnd it's people to only vote for them and overwhelming the system.
1:48:05Elon MuskYes. And by the way, it's a strategy that if allowed to work, would work and in fact has worked. California super majority Democrat.
1:48:13Joe RoganYeah.
1:48:16Elon MuskAnd there's so much gerrymandering that occurs, it's crazy.
1:48:20Joe RoganSo I'm sure you're paying attention to this Proposition 50 thing. This is the thing in California where they're trying to redo districts.
1:48:29Elon MuskOh, yeah, yeah. Because I mean, California's already gerrymandered like crazy. They want to gerrymander it even more.
1:48:37Joe RoganIt just keeps moving further and further. Right. Like if you look at the map of California, each voting cycle, more and more people are waking up and going, what the fuck?
1:48:47Joe RoganAnd we need to do something to fix this. The only option available other than the policies that you guys have always done is go. Right. And so a lot of people have been air quotes red pilled.
1:48:58Joe RoganYeah.
1:48:59Elon MuskAnd then here's another thing that is very important fact that is actually not disputed by either side, which is that when we do the census in the United States.
1:49:08Elon MuskThe census, the way the census works for apportionment of congressional seats and electoral college votes for the President is by number of persons in a state, not number of citizens, it's number of people.
1:49:24Elon MuskSo you could literally be a tourist and you will count.
1:49:27Joe RoganNow, how do they do the census when they do that? Do they ask people, do they knock on doors? Do they have them fill out forms?
1:49:36Elon MuskYeah, I think they mail out census forms and knock on doors. But the way the law reads right now is that if you are a human with a pulse, then you count in the census for allocating congressional seats and presidential votes.
1:49:58Elon MuskRight. So
1:50:01Joe Roganelectoral College, everything.
1:50:04Elon MuskIt doesn't matter whether you hear legally, illegally, if you're a human with a pulse, you count for congressional apportionment. So that means that the more people, the more illegals that California and New York can import by the time the census happens in 2030, the more congressional seats they will have and the more electoral.
1:50:28Elon MuskThe more presidential electoral college votes they will have. So they're trying to get as many illegals in as possible ahead of the census. And because all human beings, even tourists, count for the census.
1:50:45Elon MuskAnd then if you combine that with gerrymandering of districts in New York and California, as you point out, with this proposition where they're trying to increase the amount of gerrymandering that occurs in California, the biggest state in the country.
1:50:59Elon MuskSo you get. So if the census then would award more congressional seats to California because of a vast number of illegals, and New York and Illinois, they'd get more congressional seats.
1:51:14Elon MuskThey'll get more presidential electoral college votes. That would get them the House, a majority in the House. And they would get to decide who was president based literally based on legals.
1:51:28Elon MuskThese are not disputed facts by either party. I want to emphasize that. That sink in.
1:51:35Joe RoganYeah. This is not a.
1:51:36Elon MuskThese are not disputed facts by either party. It's not a. These are just. This is just the way the law works. It is like. I don't think the law should work that way.
1:51:50Elon MuskI think the apportionment should be proportionate to citizens.
1:51:54Joe RoganBut isn't that a problem with how the Constitution is writt.
1:51:57Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah.
1:51:58Joe RoganThey can't really change that.
1:52:01Elon MuskI'm not sure if it's constitutional or. But it is the way the law is written. I'm not sure if it's in the Constitution or not in this way, but that is the way the law is written.
1:52:11Joe RoganSo it is an incentive. But it's an incentive that would be removed with something simple that makes sense to everybody, that only the people that should count are people that are official U.S.
1:52:21Joe Rogancitizens.
1:52:23Elon MuskYes. The way it should work is that only US Citizens should count in the census for purposes of determining voting power.
1:52:30Joe RoganBecause people that aren't legal can't vote.
1:52:33Elon MuskSupposedly they're not supposed to be voting, but they do. But even besides that, like I said, I just can't emphasize this enough because this is a very important concept for people to understand is that the law.
1:52:48Elon MuskThe law, as it stands, counts all humans with A pulse in a state for deciding how many House of Representative votes and how many presidential electoral college votes a state gets.
1:53:05Elon MuskSo the incentive therefore is to. For California, New York and Illinois to maximize the number of illegals. So they get. So that take House seats away from red states, assign them to California, New York, Illinois and so forth, then you combine that with extreme gerrymandering in a California, New York, Illinois and whatnot, so that basically you can't even elect any Republicans.
1:53:31Elon MuskAnd then they get control of the presidency, control of the House. Then they keep doing that strategy and cement a super majority. That is what they're trying to do.
1:53:43Joe RoganSo that would essentially turn the entire country into California.
1:53:45Elon MuskYes.
1:53:46Joe RoganWell, you have differing opinions, but it doesn't matter because one party is always in control.
1:53:50Elon MuskYes.
1:53:53Joe RoganWhen you first started digging into this, when you first started, before you even accepted this role of running Doge and being a part of all that, did you have any idea that it was this fucked up?
1:54:06Elon MuskI did, yeah. I mean, sort of.
1:54:08Joe RoganWhen did you start knowing?
1:54:10Elon MuskI guess about like, well, about two years ago.
1:54:13Joe RoganIsn't that crazy?
1:54:14Elon MuskYeah, not relatively recently, you know. Yeah, I started. I started having. Well, I sort of had, like, basically had having a bad feeling about three years ago. Which is why.
1:54:23Elon MuskWhich was. Which is when. Why I felt it was like, critical to acquire Twitter and have a maximally truth seeking platform, not one that suppresses the truth. And like, it was more.
1:54:38Elon MuskIt was more like, I'm not sure what's going on, but I have a. I have a bad feeling about what's going on. And then the more I dug into it, the more I was like, holy shit, we got a real problem here.
1:54:47Elon MuskAmerica's gonna fall
1:54:50Joe Roganwithout anyone knowing it had fallen. That would be the problem. It could have fallen and been unrepairable without anyone really being aware of what had happened. Especially if you didn't buy Twitter.
1:55:02Elon MuskYes. Look, buying Twitter was a huge pain in the ass and made me a pincushion of attacks like, dab, dab, dab, dab, dab.
1:55:13Joe RoganEverybody loved you before that.
1:55:14Elon MuskWell, some people.
1:55:15Joe RoganA lot of people loved you. A lot of lefties loved you.
1:55:19Elon MuskI was a hero of the left.
1:55:20Joe RoganIt was a thing. If you drove a Tesla, it showed that you were environmentally conscious and you were on the right side.
1:55:27Elon MuskYeah, yeah. I mean, I'm still the same human I didn't like, have a brain transplant between, you know, since in, like three years ago, you know.
1:55:38Joe RoganWell, that's my favorite bumper sticker that people put on Tesla's Now, I bought this before Elon went crazy. I took a picture of one the other day.
1:55:45Elon MuskOh, you found it on this.
1:55:46Joe RoganOh, yeah. I've seen three or four of them. People that have these bumper stickers on their car that says, I bought this before Elon went crazy. Because when people were Teslas.
1:55:57Elon MuskYeah. The most, there was an organized campaign to literally burn down Teslas. And we had one of our dealerships got shot up with a gun. Like they fired bullets into the Tesla dealership.
1:56:09Elon MuskThey're burning down cars. It was crazy. But the bumper sticker should read. There should be an addendum to the bumper sticker. It's like, I bought this car before Elon turned crazy.
1:56:26Elon MuskActually, now I realize he's not crazy. And I've seen the light.
1:56:32Joe RoganThat'll take some time. That'll take some time. People don't want to admit that they've been tricked.
1:56:37Elon MuskYeah, they don't like that old saying where it's like it's really easy to fool somebody, but it's almost impossible to convince someone that they were fooled. Yeah.
1:56:45Joe RoganIt's much easier to fool them than to convince them they've been fooled. People cling to their ideas, especially if they've like publicly stated these things. They get very embarrassed of being foolish.
1:56:57Joe RoganYeah.
1:56:58Elon MuskPeople most time they double down and
1:57:02Joe Roganthey find echo chambers.
1:57:03Elon MuskYeah. Yeah. But there's, you know, the thing is that I've seen more and more people who were convinced of the sort of woke ideology see the light.
1:57:17Joe RoganYeah.
1:57:18Elon MuskSo not everyone, but it's more and more are seeing the light and it tends to happen like when something happens that really directly affects you. There was a friend of mine who was living in the San Francisco Bay area and that try to trans his daughter, like to the point where the school sent the police to his house to take his daughter away from him.
1:57:48Elon MuskNow that's going to radicalize you. Well, that's going to shake you out of your belief structure.
1:57:56Joe RoganSo it was an activist at the school that was trying to do this.
1:57:59Elon MuskYeah. The school and the state of California conspired to turn his daughter against him and make her take life altering drugs that would have sterilized her and irreversible.
1:58:14Joe RoganAnd how old was she?
1:58:15Elon MuskI think 14, something like that. He managed to talk the police out of taking his daughter away from him that day. And that night he got on a plane to Texas.
1:58:29Elon MuskWow. And you know, a year after just being in a school in like greater Austin area, she went back to normal. Meaning, like it wasn't real. Right.
1:58:47Joe RoganWell, people are being much more open to that now. I mean, Wall Street Journal yesterday had that opinion piece that this whole trans thing. There's a lot of evidence.
1:58:58Joe RoganIs a social contagion.
1:58:59Elon MuskAbsolutely.
1:59:00Joe RoganAnd Colin Wright wrote that. And then he's getting death threats now, of course. And on Blue sky, there's people talking about exterminating him, which is one thing that you are allowed to say on Blue sky, apparently.
1:59:10Joe RoganYou're. You're allowed to say horrible things about people, say possibly truthful things about this whole social contagion, because that's what. When you get nine kids that are in a friend group and they all decide to turn trans together, something's wrong.
1:59:25Elon MuskSomething's wrong.
1:59:26Joe RoganThat's not statistically. Like, here's the.
1:59:29Elon MuskYou can convince kids to do anything. You can convince kids to be a suicide bomber.
1:59:33Joe RoganRight. Which is why they do in some countries, why they choose children to do that.
1:59:38Elon MuskYes. You can train kids to be suicide bombers. And if you can train kids to be suicide bombers, you can convince them of anything.
1:59:45Joe RoganYeah. Especially with enough positive enforcement and cultural enforcement and the idea that that's not the case.
1:59:51Elon MuskThe kids. Kids are. Kids are malleable. The minds of youth are easily corrupted.
1:59:57Joe RoganYou're also seeing a lot of pushback from gay and lesbian people that are saying, like, hey, if someone stop including me.
2:00:04Elon MuskYeah, exactly. The lgbtq, it's like, wait a second. Why are we being included all the time in this situation?
2:00:10Joe RoganExactly, exactly. Especially when, you know, like, my friend Tim Dillon's talked about. This is like, it's really homophobic because you're taking these gay kids and you're. You're telling them, like, hey, you're not gay.
2:00:22Joe RoganYou're actually a girl.
2:00:23Elon MuskYes.
2:00:23Joe RoganAnd, you know, hey, go make it so that you can never have an orgasm again, and you'll be happy.
2:00:29Elon MuskLike, yeah. Permanent mutilation. Permanent castration of kids is like, I think we should really look at anyone who permanently castrates a kid as, like, right up there with Josef Mengele.
2:00:45Elon MuskI mean, they're mutilating children.
2:00:48Joe RoganYeah. Yeah. And it's thought of as being kind. And the thing is, would you rather have a live daughter or a dead son?
2:00:58Elon MuskThat's the line they use.
2:00:59Joe RoganYeah. Which is not supported by any data.
2:01:01Elon MuskNo. In fact, the probability of suicide increases. This is important maybe for the audience to know. The probability of suicide increases if you trans a kid. Not decreases. By some accounts, it triples.
2:01:15Elon MuskSo that is an evil lie, and
2:01:18Joe Roganit's a lie that is supposedly compassionate. Imagine you've Twisted reality to the point where confusing a child that's not even legally allowed to get a fucking tattoo.
2:01:31Elon MuskYeah.
2:01:31Joe RoganRight. Because you think that you could make a mistake with a tattoo. Totally removable thing.
2:01:36Elon MuskRight.
2:01:36Joe RoganIf I wanted to tomorrow I could go to a doctor and they could laser off every tattoo that I have on me.
2:01:41Elon MuskRight. Okay.
2:01:42Joe RoganNo harm, no foul.
2:01:43Elon MuskYeah.
2:01:43Joe RoganBut you get sterilized, like, that's it. Forever. Forever.
2:01:47Elon MuskYes.
2:01:48Joe RoganThey'll castrate you. You no longer have testicles.
2:01:50Elon MuskYes. That's not coming back.
2:01:52Joe RoganYou have a hole where your penis used to be.
2:01:54Elon MuskYes.
2:01:54Joe RoganAnd this is compassionate and this is preventing you from.
2:01:56Elon MuskActually, a lot of kids die with these sex change operations. The number of deaths on the operating table, people don't hear about those. A lot of kids. Because we don't really actually have the technology to make this work.
2:02:14Elon MuskSo a bunch of the times the kids just die in this exchange operations.
2:02:18Joe RoganJesus Christ.
2:02:19Elon MuskYeah. It's demented. It should be viewed as like, like, like evil Nazi doctor stuff. That's why it's like real Nazi, not the bullshit, fake Nazi stuff.
2:02:31Joe RoganCrazy that even pushing back against something that seems like fundamentally, logically, very easy to argue. The old Twitter would ban you forever.
2:02:42Elon MuskYes.
2:02:45Joe RoganThat's how crazy a social contagion can get when it completely defies logic. Victimizes children.
2:02:51Elon MuskYeah.
2:02:52Joe RoganDoes something that makes no sense, does not support it by data. All connected to this ideology that trans is good, we gotta save trans kids. Protect trans kids.
2:03:02Elon MuskYeah. And what I want to emphasize is that the save trans kids thing is a lie. If you castrate kids and trans them, the probability of suicide increases. It does not decrease, it substantially increases.
2:03:20Elon MuskThe studies have done that. I've seen the risk of suicide triples if you trans kids. So you're not saving them, you're killing them. Moreover, during the sex change operation, there are many deaths that occur during the sex change operation.
2:03:38Joe RoganJesus Christ. It's just crazy that this is a real issue.
2:03:43Elon MuskYeah. It's a nightmare fever dream. And people are finally waking up from it.
2:03:51Joe RoganNow, when you started getting into the Doge stuff and started finding how much money is being shuffled around and moved around to NGOs and how much money is involved and just totally untraceable funds.
2:04:08Joe RoganThis is again, something like two years plus ago. You weren't aware of it all?
2:04:15Elon MuskNo, I was aware of it. I just didn't realize how big it was. Just how much waste and forward there is in the government is truly vast. In fact, the government didn't even know, nor did they care
2:04:33Joe Roganthat's crazy.
2:04:34Elon MuskYeah. And I mean, just like some of the very basic stuff that Doge did will have lasting effects. And some of these things, like, they're so elementary, you can't believe it.
2:04:47Elon MuskSo the DOGE team got the most of the main payments computers to require the Congressional appropriation code. So when a payment is made, you have to actually enter the Congressional appropriation code that used to be optional and often would be just left blank.
2:05:09Elon MuskSo the money would just go out. But it wasn't even tied to a congressional appropriation. Then DOGE team also made the comment field for the payment mandatory. So you have to say something.
2:05:20Elon MuskWe're not saying that what is said. Like, you can say anything. Your cat could run across the keyboard. You could go qwerty asdf. But you have to say something above nothing.
2:05:30Elon MuskBecause what we found was that there were tens of billions, maybe hundreds of billions of dollars that were zombie payments. So somebody had approved a payment, somebody in the government approved a payment and some recurring payment, and they retired or died or changed jobs, and no one turned the money off, so the money would just keep going out.
2:05:56Elon MuskAnd it's a pretty rare to go where? To a company or an individual. And it's a pretty rare company or individual who will complain that they're getting money that they should not get.
2:06:09Elon MuskAnd a bunch of the money was just going to transfer payments to the states.
2:06:13Joe RoganSo these are automatic payments?
2:06:14Elon MuskYeah, just automatic payments.
2:06:15Joe RoganNo accounting for them at all.
2:06:16Elon MuskImagine like if, like there's an automatic debit of your credit card and you never look at the statement.
2:06:22Joe RoganRight.
2:06:23Elon MuskSo it's just money going out. That's what I call them, zombie payments. They might have been legitimate at one point, but the person who approved that recurring payment changed jobs, died, retired or whatever, and no one ever turned the money off.
2:06:42Elon MuskAnd my guess is that's probably at least $100 billion a year, maybe 200.
2:06:51Joe RoganAnd going where to?
2:06:58Elon MuskI mean, there are millions of these payments. So it's, I mean, millions. Yes, yes.
2:07:04Joe RoganMillions of payments that are going to who knows where.
2:07:07Elon MuskYes. So in a bunch of cases, there are fraud rings that operate, professional fraud rings that operate to exploit the system. They figure out some security hole in the system and they just do professional fraud.
2:07:24Elon MuskAnd that's where we found, for example, people who were 300 years old in the Social Security Administration database.
2:07:33Joe RoganNow, I thought that this was a mistake of not registering their deaths, that people were born a long time ago and it had defaulted to a certain number. And so that after time, those people were still in the system.
2:07:49Joe RoganIt was just an error of the way the accounting was done.
2:07:53Elon MuskYeah, so that's not true. So there's or at least one of two things must be true. There's a typo or some mistake in the computer or it's fraudulent. But we don't have any 300 year old vampires living in America.
2:08:12Elon MuskAllegedly. Allegedly. And we don't have people in some cases who are receiving payments who are born in the future. Born in the future. Born in the future. Really? Yes.
2:08:27Elon MuskThe people receiving payments whose birth date was like in 2100 and something. Okay, so there's like next century, is
2:08:36Joe Roganthere a task force?
2:08:37Elon MuskWe know that one of two things must be true, that either there's a mistake in the computer or it's fraud. But if you have someone's birth date that's either in the future or where they are older than the oldest living American, because the oldest living American is 114 years old.
2:08:53Elon MuskSo if they're more than 114 years old, there is either a mistake and someone should call them and say, I think we have your birthday wrong. Because it says you were born in 17, you know, 86.
2:09:08Elon MuskAnd you know, that was before, you know, before there was really an America. You know, it was like, you know, this is kind of early, you know, we're still fighting England type of thing.
2:09:24Elon MuskYou know, it's like this person either needs to be in the Guinness Book of World Records or they're not alive.
2:09:32Joe RoganBut still, at the end of the day, money is going towards that account that's connected to this person that is either non existent or so.
2:09:41Elon MuskYeah, so there was like, I think something like 20 million people in the Social Security Administration database that could not possibly be alive. If their birth date is like based on their birth date, they could not possibly be alive.
2:09:58Joe RoganAnd then to be clear, 20 million people that were receiving funds,
2:10:03Elon Muska bunch of most of them were not receiving funds. Some of them were receiving funds, most were not receiving funds. But. So let me tell you how the scam works.
2:10:12Elon MuskIt's a bank shot. So the Social Security Administration database is used as the source of truth by all the other databases that the government uses. So even if they stop the payments on the Social Security Administration database, like unemployment insurance, small business administration, student loans, all check the Social Security Administration database to say, is this a legitimate alive person?
2:10:37Elon MuskAnd the Social Security database will say, yes, this person is still alive even though they're 200 years old, but forgets to mention that they're 200 years old. It just Says it just returns when the computer is queries, it says, yes, this person is live.
2:10:54Elon MuskAnd so then they were able to exploit the entire rest of the government ecosystem. So fake. Then you get fake student loans, then you get fake unemployment insurance, then you get fake medical payments.
2:11:04Joe RoganAnd this doesn't have to be tied to an individual where there's an address where you can check on this person.
2:11:10Elon MuskNo, if you just did any check at all, you would stop this. So that's so. So.
2:11:20Joe RoganAnd how much money do you think is any check?
2:11:22Elon MuskLike anything at all that would start. Would stop the fraud, like any effort at all. Yeah.
2:11:29Joe RoganSo there's multiple layers.
2:11:30Elon MuskYeah.
2:11:31Joe RoganSocial Security number verifies that this is a real person.
2:11:33Elon MuskRight.
2:11:34Joe RoganAnd then the other systems check up
2:11:35Elon Muskon every other government payment and every other government payment system for everything. For like a small, Small Business administration, student loans, Medicaid, Medicare. Every other government payment, of which there are many.
2:11:49Elon MuskThere are actually hundreds of government payment systems can all be exploited. So long as Social Security database says this person is alive. That's the nature of the scam. It's a bank shot.
2:12:02Elon MuskSo then the rebuttal from the Dems is like, oh, well, the vast majority of the people who are marked as alive in the Social Security administration weren't receiving Social Security administration payments.
2:12:10Elon MuskThat is true. What they forgot to mention is they're getting fraudulent payments from every other government program. And that's why the names were so opposed to turning off, to declaring someone dead, who is dead, because it would stop the entire other.
2:12:25Elon MuskAll the other fraud from happening.
2:12:27Joe RoganAnd so. But all this, is it trackable? Like all this other fraud, if they wanted to, they could chase it all down.
2:12:33Elon MuskYeah. It's not even hard.
2:12:36Joe RoganAnd yet they're opposing chasing it all down.
2:12:38Elon MuskThey're opposing chasing it all down because it turns off the money magnet for the illegals.
2:12:45Joe RoganWow.
2:12:47Elon MuskBecause it's very logical to, like I'm saying, the most common sense things possible. If someone's got a birthday in Social Security that is an impossible birthday, meaning they are older than the oldest living American or born in the future, then you should call them and say, excuse me, we seem to have your birthday wrong because it says that you're 200 years old.
2:13:16Elon MuskThat's all you need to do.
2:13:19Joe RoganAnd then you would remove them from the Social Security database and make that number no longer available for all those other government payments.
2:13:24Elon MuskExactly.
2:13:26Joe RoganWow. And how much money are we talking?
2:13:30Elon MuskIt's hundreds of billions of dollars.
2:13:34Joe RoganAnd this is all traceable. Like you could hunt dolphins.
2:13:37Elon MuskLike you don't need to be Sherlock Holmes here, is what I'm saying.
2:13:41Joe RoganWell, this is.
2:13:41Elon MuskWe don't need to call Sherlock Holmes for this one.
2:13:43Joe RoganIs this part of.
2:13:44Elon MuskYou just need to call the person and say, excuse me, we seem to have the. We must have your birthday wrong because it says you're 200 years old or were born in the future.
2:13:57Elon MuskSo could you tell us what your birthday is? That's what we need to do. It's that simple.
2:14:02Joe RoganBut all these other government payments that are available that are connected to this Social Security number, it seems like if you just chased that all down, you would find the widespread fraud, you would find where it's going.
2:14:18Elon MuskYes, but the root of the problem is the Social Security Administration database, because the Social Security number in the United States is used as a de facto national ID number.
2:14:32Elon MuskYou know, that's why, like, the bank always asks for your Social. Like, you know, any financial institution will ask for your Social Security number.
2:14:44Joe RoganThis is. It sounds so insane that this isn't chased down that. I mean. I mean that in and of itself is. That's such mishandling.
2:14:54Elon MuskYes. No, it's mind blowing. So, yeah, it's crazy.
2:15:02Joe RoganWell, you were very reluctant last time you were here to talk about the extent of some of the fraud because you're like, they could kill me. Because this is kind of.
2:15:12Elon MuskOh, yeah. What I'm saying is that, like, if you create. If like.
2:15:24Elon MuskTo be pragmatic and realistic, you actually can't manage to zero fraud yet. You can manage to low fraud number, but not to zero fraud. If you manage to zero fraud, you're going to push so many people over the edge who are receiving fraudulent payments that the number of inbound homicidal maniacs will be really hard to overcome.
2:15:45Elon MuskSo I'm actually taking, I think, quite a reasonable position, which is that we should simply reduce the amount of fraud, which I think is not an extremist position, and we should aspire to, you know, have less fraud over time.
2:16:01Elon MuskNot that we should be ultra draconian and eliminate every last scrap of fraud, which I guess would be nice to have, but, like, we don't even need to go that extreme.
2:16:12Elon MuskI'm saying we should just stop the blatant large scale, super obvious fraud. I think that's a reasonable position.
2:16:19Joe RoganIt's a very reasonable position.
2:16:20Elon MuskYeah.
2:16:20Joe RoganAnd so what was the most shocking pushback that you got when you started implementing Doge, when you started investigating into where money was going?
2:16:34Elon MuskWell, I guess this is. I should have anticipated this, but
2:16:41Joe Roganwhile
2:16:41Elon MuskMost of the fraudulent government payments to, especially to the NGOs, go to the Democrats. Most of it, like, I don't know, for argument's sake, let's say 80%, maybe 90%, 10 to 20% of it does go to Republicans.
2:16:59Elon MuskAnd so when we turn off funding to a fraudulent NGO, we'd get complaints from whatever the 10% of Republicans who were receiving the money, and they would, you know, they would very loudly complain.
2:17:15Elon MuskBecause the honest answer is the Republicans are partly. They're receiving some of the fraud too. They're getting a vigilante.
2:17:25Joe RoganJesus.
2:17:28Elon MuskYeah. I want to be clear, it's not like the Republican Party is some ultra pure paragon of virtue. No. Okay.
2:17:37Joe RoganWell, you see that with the congressional insider training, it's across the board.
2:17:42Elon MuskYeah.
2:17:42Joe RoganIt's left and right.
2:17:43Elon MuskI mean, the whole uni party criticism has some validity to it. You know, there's so. And it's like, if you turn off fraudulent payments, it's not like, like I said, it's not like 100% of those payments were going to Democrats.
2:17:58Elon MuskA small percentage were also going to Republicans. Those Republicans complain very loudly. And, you know, and that's, that's. So there was a lot of pushback on the Republican side when we started cutting some of these funds.
2:18:16Elon MuskThese funds. And I tried telling them, like, well, you know, 90% of the money is going to your opponents. But they still, if they, even if they're getting 10%, they want their piece.
2:18:27Elon MuskYeah, they want their piece and they've
2:18:29Joe Roganbeen getting that piece for a long time.
2:18:30Elon MuskYes.
2:18:34Joe RoganDid you.
2:18:35Elon MuskThis is why, like, you know, politics
2:18:36Joe Roganis like, it's dirty business.
2:18:38Elon MuskYeah. I mean, that's like saying if, like, you know, if you like sausages and respect the law, do not watch either of them being. Being made. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
2:18:52Elon MuskWow.
2:18:55Joe RoganWell, that's not even true because I've made sausage before.
2:18:57Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah.
2:18:58Joe RoganIt's like, it's not that big a deal. Yeah. Spices and casing running through the machine, not that big a deal.
2:19:05Elon MuskYeah. But, yeah, I mean, I think the stuff I'm saying here is not like, if you stand back and think about it for a second, like, oh, yeah, that makes sense.
2:19:16Elon MuskYou know,
2:19:22Elon MuskIt's not like one political party is going to be, you know, pure devil or pure angel. You know, I think there's much more corruption on the Democrat side, but it's not.
2:19:33Elon MuskThere's nothing. There's still some corruption on the Republican side.
2:19:36Joe RoganHow did it happen that the majority of the corruption wound up being on the Democrat side.
2:19:42Elon MuskWell, because the transfer payments, especially to illegals, are very much on the Democrat side.
2:19:49Joe RoganSo that's the root of it all, is the illegal situation.
2:19:52Elon MuskYes. I mean, there's.
2:19:54Joe RoganOr a focal point.
2:19:55Elon MuskYes. It's also like. It would also be accurate to say that while obviously not everyone who's a Democrat is a criminal, almost everyone who is a criminal is a Democrat,
2:20:11Joe Roganbecause
2:20:13Elon Muskthe Democrats are the Soft Run Crime party. So if you're a criminal, who are you going to vote for? Right, right, The Soft Run Crime Party.
2:20:22Joe RoganDid you think you were going to be able to get more done than you were?
2:20:28Elon MuskWe did get a lot done. And Doge is still happening, by the way. The Doge is still underway. There's still waste and fraud being cut by the Doge team.
2:20:43Elon MuskSo it hasn't stopped.
2:20:45Joe RoganIt's less publicized.
2:20:46Elon MuskIt's less publicized. And they don't have, like, a clear person to attack anymore. Well, it seems like once they've basically, they applied immense pressure to me to stop it, so then I'm like, the best thing for me is to just, you know, cut out of this.
2:21:03Elon MuskIn any case, as a special government employee, I could only be there for like 120 days anyway, something like that. So whatever the law says. So I was necessarily could only be there for four months as a special government employee.
2:21:15Elon MuskSo. But yeah, I mean, you turn off the money spigot to fraudsters, they get very upset, to say the least.
2:21:29Elon MuskMy death threat level went ballistic. It was like a rocket going to orbit. Yeah. But now that I'm not in dc, I guess they don't really have a person to attack anymore.
2:21:46Joe RoganWell, the rhetoric about you has calmed down significantly. Yeah, it was disturbing. It's disturbing. To watch was like, this is crazy. And to watch these politicians engage in it and all these people just like framing you as this monster.
2:22:00Joe RoganLike, this is so weird. Like, this is what happens when you uncover fraud.
2:22:04Elon MuskYes.
2:22:05Joe RoganThe whole machine turns on you. And if it wasn't for a person like you, who owns a platform and has an enormous amount of money, like, could have destroyed you.
2:22:14Elon MuskYeah. And that was the goal. The goal was to destroy me. Absolutely.
2:22:18Joe RoganBecause you were getting in the way
2:22:20Elon Muskof this amazing graft, this gigantic fraud machine. I think Doge teams done a lot of good work in terms of fraud and waste prevented. My guess is it's probably on the order of 2 or 300 billion a year.
2:22:40Elon MuskSo it's pretty good.
2:22:42Joe RoganWhat do you think could have been done if you just had like, full reign and total cooperation? How much do you think you could have saved?
2:22:50Elon MuskI mean, what level of power are we assuming here? Godlike? Oh, yeah, probably cut the federal budget in half and get more done.
2:23:01Joe RoganThat is so crazy. It is so crazy.
2:23:05Elon MuskGet more done. And federal budget, it's that widespread? Well, I mean, a whole bunch of government departments simply shouldn't exist, in my opinion.
2:23:16Joe RoganLike examples.
2:23:18Elon MuskWell, the Department of Education, which was created recently, like under Jimmy Carter, our educational results have gone downhill ever since it was created. So if you create a department and the result of creating that department is a massive decline in educational results, and it's Department of Education, you're better off not having it because literally we did better before there was one than after.
2:23:46Joe RoganWhen you let the states run it.
2:23:47Elon MuskYes. Yeah, because at least the states can compete with one another. But the problem is like, you hear like, cutting Department of Education. Our kids need education. Yeah, they do.
2:23:57Elon MuskBut this is a new department that didn't even exist, you know, until the late 70s. And ever since that department was created, the results, educational results have declined. And so why would you have an institution continue that has made education worse?
2:24:20Elon MuskIt doesn't make sense.
2:24:21Joe RoganThey killed it though, right?
2:24:22Elon MuskNo, they still live, unfortunately, but they
2:24:24Joe Roganwere trying to kill it.
2:24:25Elon MuskIt has been substantially reduced.
2:24:27Joe RoganOkay, what other organizations? What other departments?
2:24:32Elon MuskWell, I mean, I'm a small government guy, so, you know, when, you know, when the country was created, we just had the Department of State, Department of War, you know, and sort of the, sort of the Department of Justice, we had an attorney General and Treasury Department.
2:24:56Elon MuskI don't know why you need more than that.
2:25:00Joe RoganSo what other departments specifically do you think are just completely ineffective?
2:25:05Elon MuskWell, I mean, here it's like a question. It's a sort of philosophical question of how much government do you think there should be? Right. In my opinion, there should be the least amount of government I've heard.
2:25:17Joe RoganThe most bizarre argument against this is that you're cutting jobs and you're going to leave people jobless. And I'm like, but their jobs are useless.
2:25:26Elon MuskYeah. Paying people to do nothing doesn't make sense. Like there's like a great. It's a story about like Milton Friedman, who is awesome generally, whatever Milton Friedman said is people should do that thing.
2:25:43Elon MuskI'm not sure if it's farqueful or not, but like someone complained to him, like he observed, I think people that were like digging ditches with shovels. And he said, well, allegedly Freeman said, well, I think you should use excavating equipment instead of shovels and you could get it done with far fewer people.
2:26:11Elon MuskAnd then someone said, but then we're going to lose a lot of jobs. Well, then freedom was said, well, in that case, why don't you have them use teaspoons?
2:26:23Elon MuskJust dig there, just with teaspoons. Think of all the jobs you'll create. It's bullshit. Basically. You just want people to work on things that are productive. You want people to work on.
2:26:37Elon MuskOn building things, on building, you know, providing products and services that people find valuable, like, you know, making food, being, you know, being a farmer or a plumber or electrician or just anyone who's a builder or providing useful services.
2:26:57Elon MuskAnd that's what you want people to be doing. Not fake government jobs that don't add any value or may subtract value. There's also, like, you know, to illustrate the absurdity of also, how is the economy measured?
2:27:15Elon MuskLike, the way economists measure the economy is nonsensical because they'll measure any job, no matter. Even if that job is a dumb job that has no point and is even counterproductive.
2:27:26Elon MuskSo like, so like the joke is like, there's two economists going on a hike in the woods. They come across a pile of shit. And one economist says to the other, I'll pay you $100 to eat that shit.
2:27:42Elon MuskThe economist eats the shit, gets the $100, they keep walking. Then they come across another pile of shit. And the other economist says, now I'll pay you $100 to eat the pile of shit.
2:27:57Elon MuskPays the other economist, Andrew Ellis, to pilot it. Then the way he said, they said, wait a second, we both just ate a pile of shit and we don't have any more extra money.
2:28:13Elon MuskLike, we both just gave the hundred dollars back to me and we both ate a pile of shit. This doesn't make any sense. And they said, no, no, but think of the economy.
2:28:22Elon MuskBecause that's $200 in the economy, basically, that measure eating shit would count as a job.
2:28:38Elon MuskThis is to illustrate the absurdity of economics.
2:28:43Joe RoganOne of the things you said when
2:28:44Elon Muskthings should not go as they drop.
2:28:46Joe RoganOne of the things you said when you stepped away is that you're kind of done and that it's unfixable or under its current form. The way people are approaching it,
2:29:03Elon Muskyou can make it directionally better, but ultimately you can't fully fix the system. So.
2:29:16Elon MuskIt would be accurate to say that even, like, unless you could go like super draconian, like, you know, Genghis Khan level on cutting waste and fraud, which you can't really do in A democratic country, an aspirationally democratic country, then there's no way to solve the debt crisis.
2:29:39Elon MuskSo we've got national debt that's just insane. Where the debt payments, the interest payments and the debt exceeding our entire military budget. I mean that's one. That was one of the wake up calls for me.
2:29:49Elon MuskI was like, wait a second, the interest on national debt is bigger than the entire military budget and growing. This is crazy.
2:30:07Elon MuskSo even if you implement all these savings, you're only delaying the day of reckoning for when America becomes goes bankrupt. Unless you go full Genghis Khan, which you can't really do.
2:30:20Elon MuskSo.
2:30:25Elon MuskI came to the conclusion that the only way to get us out of the debt crisis and to prevent America from going bankrupt is AI and robotics. So like we need to grow the economy at a rate that allows us to pay off our debt.
2:30:51Elon MuskAnd I guess people just generally don't appreciate the degree to which, you know, the government overspending is a problem. But even like the Social Security website, this is under the Biden administration.
2:31:06Elon MuskOn the website it would say like based on current demographic trends and how much money Social Security is bringing in versus how many Social Security recipients there are, because we have an aging population, relatively speaking, average age is increasing.
2:31:22Elon MuskSocial Security will not be able to maintain as full payments, I think in by 2032. So Social Security will have to stop, start reducing the amount of money that's been paid people in about seven years.
2:31:38Joe RoganAnd so the only way to fix that, robotics, manufacturing, raise gdp.
2:31:45Elon MuskYou've got to basically massively increase the economic output, which is, and the only way to do that is AI and robotics. So basically we're going bankrupt without AI and robotics, even with a bunch of savings.
2:32:03Elon MuskThe savings like reducing waste and forward can give us a longer Runway, but it cannot ultimately pay off our national debt.
2:32:10Joe RoganSo what do you think the solution is to the jobs that are going to be lost because of AI and robotics, the jobs due to automation, the jobs due to no longer do we need human beings to do these jobs because AI is doing them.
2:32:24Joe RoganDo you think it's going to be some sort of a universal basic income thing? Do you think there's going to be some other kind of solution that has to be implemented because a lot of people are going to be out of work, right?
2:32:39Elon MuskI think there will be actually a high demand for jobs, but not necessarily the same jobs. So I mean this is actually, this process has been happening throughout modern history.
2:32:55Elon MuskI mean there used to be like doing calculations manually with like a pencil and paper used to be a job, so they used to have like buildings full of people called computers, where the banks would like, all you do all day is you do calculations because they didn't have computers, they didn't have digital computers that people do.
2:33:18Elon MuskYeah, well, there's just people who just like add and subtract stuff on a piece of paper. And that would be how banks would do financial processing.
2:33:27Joe RoganAnd you'd have to literally go over their equations to make sure the books are balanced.
2:33:30Elon MuskYeah. And most times it's just simple math. In a world before computers, how did you calculate? How did you do transactions? You had to do them by hand. So then when computers were introduced, the job of doing bank calculations no longer existed.
2:33:52Elon MuskSo people had to go do something else. And that's what's going to happen. That's what is happening at an accelerated rate due to AI and then robotics.
2:34:02Joe RoganThat's the issue though, right? The accelerated rate, because it's going to be the accelerator.
2:34:06Elon MuskIt's just happening. Like I said, AI is the supersonic tsunami. So that's what I call it, supersonic tsunami.
2:34:19Joe RoganWhat other jobs will be available that aren't available now because of AI?
2:34:26Elon MuskWell, AI is really still digital. Ultimately, AI can improve the productivity of humans who, who weld things with their hands or do things with their hands, like plumb, you know, literally welding, electrical work, plumbing, anything that's, that's physically moving atoms, like cooking food or, you know, farming or like, like anything that's physical, those jobs will exist for a much longer time.
2:34:59Elon MuskBut anything that is digital, which is like just someone at a computer doing something, AI is going to take over those jobs.
2:35:06Joe RoganLike lightning coding, anything along those lines.
2:35:11Elon MuskYeah, it's going to take over those jobs like lightning. Just like digital computers took over the job of people doing manual calculations, but much faster.
2:35:24Joe RoganSo what happens to all those people? Like, what kind of numbers are we talking about? You're going to lose most drivers, right? Commercial drivers. You're going to have automated vehicles, AI controlled systems.
2:35:34Joe RoganJust like there's certain ports in China, I think in Singapore where everything's completely automated.
2:35:40Elon MuskYeah, mostly, yeah.
2:35:42Joe RoganYeah. So you're going to lose a lot of those jobs. Longshoremen jobs, trucking, commercial drivers.
2:35:49Elon MuskYeah, I mean, we actually do have a shortage of truck drivers, but this actually.
2:35:54Joe RoganWell, that's why California's hired so many illegals to do it. Have you seen those numbers?
2:35:59Elon MuskYeah, I mean, the problem is like when you, when people don't know how to drive a semi truck, which is actually a Hard thing to do. Then they crash and kill people.
2:36:08Elon MuskYeah, a friend of mine's wife was killed by an illegal driving a truck and she was just out biking and there was an illegal. He didn't know how to drive the truck or something, I mean, and he ran her over.
2:36:25Elon MuskSo I mean, the thing is, for something like you can't let people drive sort of an 80,000 pound semi if they don't know how to do it. But in California they're just letting people
2:36:43Joe Rogando it because they need people to do it.
2:36:45Elon MuskWell, they also need. They want the votes and that kind of thing. But yeah, cars are going to be autonomous, but there's just so many desk jobs where really what people are doing is they're processing email or they're answering the phone and just anything that isn't moving atoms, like anything that is not physically, like doing physical work, that will obviously be the first thing those jobs will be and are being eliminated by AI at a very rapid pace.
2:37:24Elon MuskAnd ultimately working will be optional because you'll have robots plus AI and we'll have, in a benign scenario, universal high income, not just universal basic income. Universal high income, meaning anyone can have any products or services that they want.
2:37:46Elon MuskBut there will be a lot of trauma and disruption along the way.
2:37:51Joe RoganSo you anticipate a basic income from that the economy will boost to such an extent that a high income would be available to almost everybody.
2:38:02Elon MuskSo we'd essentially eliminate poverty in the benign scenario? Yes. So like there's multiple scenarios. There are multiple scenarios. There's a lot of ways this movie can end. Like the reason I'm so concerned about AI safety is that one of the possibilities is the Terminator scenario.
2:38:21Elon MuskIt's not zero percent, so that's why I'm really banging the drum on AI needs to be maximally truth seeking. Don't make. I don't force AI to believe a lie like that.
2:38:38Elon MuskFor example, the founding fathers were actually a group of diverse women. Or that misgendering is worth a nuclear war. Because if that's the case and then you get the robots and the AI becomes omnipotent, it can enforce that outcome.
2:38:55Elon MuskAnd then unless you're a diverse woman, you're out of the picture. So we're toast. Or you might wake up as a divorce woman one day. Everybody has adjusted the picture and we are now a divorce woman.
2:39:13Joe RoganSo that would be. That's the worst possible situation. So what would be the steps that we would have to take in order to implement the benign solution where it's universal High income, like best case scenario, this is the path forward to universal high income for essentially every single citizen that the economy gets boosted by AI and robotics to such an extent that no one ever has to work again.
2:39:45Joe RoganAnd what about meaning for those people? Which gets really weird.
2:39:49Elon MuskYeah, I don't know how to answer the question about meaning.
2:39:54Joe RoganThat's an individual problem. Right, but it's going to be an individual problem for millions of people.
2:40:02Elon MuskYeah, well, I mean, I guess I've like fought against saying like, you know, I've been a voice saying like, hey, we need to slow down AI, we need to slow down all these things and we need to not have a crazy AI race.
2:40:23Elon MuskI've been saying that for a long time, for 20 plus years. But then I came to realize that really there's two choices here. Either be a spectator or a participant.
2:40:35Elon MuskAnd if I'm a spectator, I can't really influence the direction of AI. But if I'm a participant, I can try to influence the direction of AI and have a maximally true seeking AI with good values that loves humanity.
2:40:49Elon MuskAnd that's what we're trying to create with Grok at Xai. And you know, the researchers I think bearing this out, like I said when they compared, like how do AIs value the weight of a human life?
2:41:02Elon MuskGrok was the only one, the only one of the AIs that weighted human life equally and didn't say like a white guy's worth 1/20 of a black woman's life.
2:41:15Elon MuskLiterally, that's what the calculation they came up with. So like this is, I'm like, this is very alarming. We've got to watch this stuff.
2:41:23Joe RoganSo this is one of the things that has to happen in order to reach this benign solution.
2:41:30Elon MuskYeah,
2:41:33Joe Roganbest movie ending.
2:41:34Elon MuskYeah, you want a curious, truth seeking AI. And I think a curious, truth seeking AI will want to foster humanity because we are much more interesting than a bunch of rocks.
2:41:51Elon MuskLike you say, like I love Mars, you know, but Mars is kind of boring. It's just a bunch of red rocks. It's, there's some cool stuff. It's got a tall mountain, it's got, you know, it's got the biggest, the biggest ravine and the tallest mountain, but there's no animals or plants or, and there's no people and you know, so humanity is just much more interesting if you're a curious truth seeking AI than not humanity.
2:42:20Elon MuskIt's just much more interesting. I mean like as humans we could go for example and eliminate all chimps if we said if we put our minds to it, we could say we could go out and we could annihilate all chimps and all gorillas, but we don't.
2:42:38Elon MuskThere has been encroachment on their environment, but we actually try to preserve the chimpanzee and gorilla habitats. And I think in a good scenario, AI would do the same with humans.
2:42:54Elon MuskIt would actually foster human civilization and care about human happiness. So this is the thing to try to achieve, I think.
2:43:08Joe RoganBut what does the landscape look like if you have grok competing with OpenAI, competing with all these different. How does it work? If you have AIs that have been captured by ideologies that are side by side competing with grok, how do we.
2:43:30Joe RoganSo this is one of the reasons why you felt like it's important to not just be an observer, but participate and then have GROK be more successful and more potent than these other applications.
2:43:44Elon MuskYes. As long as there's at least one AI that is maximally truth seeking, curious and you know, and for example, ways all, you know, human lives equally does not favor one race or gender, then people are able to look at GROK at XAI and compare that and say, wait a second, why are all these other AIs being basically sexist and racist?
2:44:14Elon MuskAnd then that causes some embarrassment for the other AIs and then they, they improve. They tend to improve just in the same way that acquiring Twitter and allowing the truth to be told and not suppressing the truth forced the other social media companies to be more truthful.
2:44:38Elon MuskIn the same way, having GROK be a maximally truth seeking, curious AI will force the other AI companies to also be more truth seeking and fair.
2:44:51Joe RoganAnd the funniest thing is, even though like the socialists and the Marxists are in opposition to a lot of your ideas, but if this gets implemented and you really can achieve universal high income, that's the greatest socialist solution of all time.
2:45:08Joe RoganLike literally no one will have to work.
2:45:10Elon MuskCorrect. Like I said, so there is a benign scenario here, which I think probably people will be happy with if as long as we achieve it, which is sustainable abundance, which is if everyone can have.
2:45:27Elon MuskIf you ask people what's the future that you want, and I think a future where we haven't destroyed nature like you can still we have the national parks with the Amazon rainforest still there, we haven't paved the rainforest like the natural beauty is still there, but people have nonetheless.
2:45:49Elon MuskEveryone has abundance, everyone has excellent medical care, everyone has whatever goods and services they want.
2:45:55Joe RoganAnd you were just.
2:45:56Elon MuskIt kind of sounds like heaven.
2:45:58Joe RoganIt is like the ideal socialist utopia. And this idea that the only thing you should be doing with your time is working in order to pay your bills and feed yourself sounds kind of archaic considering the kind of technology that's at play.
2:46:14Elon MuskYeah.
2:46:14Joe RoganLike a world where that's not your concern at all anymore. Everybody has money for food. Everybody has abundance. Everybody has electronics in their home. Everybody essentially has a high income.
2:46:28Joe RoganNow you can kind of do whatever you want. And your day can now be exploring your interests, doing things that you actually enjoy doing. Your purpose just has to shift.
2:46:41Joe RoganInstead of, you know, I'm a hard worker and this is what I do. And that's how I, that's how I define myself. Don't. Now you can fucking golf all day.
2:46:50Joe RoganYou know, you could. Whatever it is that you enjoy doing can now be your main pursuit.
2:46:56Elon MuskYeah.
2:46:57Joe RoganWell, that sounds crazy good.
2:47:00Elon MuskYeah, that's, that's the best. That's, that's, that's the benign scenario that
2:47:02Joe Roganwe should be aiming for ending to the movie is actually pretty good.
2:47:07Elon MuskYes. I think there is still this question of meaning, of making sure people don't lose meaning. So hopefully they can find meaning in ways that's not derived from their work and purpose.
2:47:24Joe RoganPurpose for things that you find, things that you do that you enjoy. But there's a lot of people that are independently wealthy that spend most of their time doing something they enjoy.
2:47:34Elon MuskRight.
2:47:35Joe RoganAnd that could be the majority of
2:47:37Elon Muskpeople, pretty much everyone.
2:47:39Joe RoganBut we would have to rewire how people approach life, which seems to be like, acceptable, because you're not asking them to be enslaved. You're exactly asking them the opposite.
2:47:50Joe RoganLike, no longer be burdened by financial worries. Now go do what you like.
2:47:59Elon MuskYes.
2:47:59Joe RoganGo fucking test pizza.
2:48:02Elon MuskDo whatever you want, pretty much. So that's, that's, that's the, that's the, that's probably the best case outcome.
2:48:11Joe RoganThat sounds like the best case outcome, period, for the future. If you're looking at like, how much people have struggled just to feed themselves all throughout history. Food, shelter, safety, if all of that stuff, can it be fixed?
2:48:26Joe RoganLike, how much would you solve a lot of the crime if there was a universal high income? Just think of that, like, how much of crime is financially motivated.
2:48:37Joe RoganYou know, the greater percentage of people that are committing crimes live in poor, disenfranchised neighborhoods. So if there's no such thing anymore, if you really can achieve universal high income.
2:48:48Joe RoganYeah, this is. It sounds like a utopian.
2:48:52Elon MuskYes. I think some people make commit crime because they like committing crime just Some, some amount of that is they just
2:48:59Joe Roganenjoy wild people out there.
2:49:01Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
2:49:02Joe RoganAnd Obviously they've become 40 years old living a life like that. Now all of a sudden, universal high income is not going to completely stop their instincts.
2:49:11Elon MuskYeah, I mean, I guess if you want to have like, say, read a science fiction book or some books that are probably the inaccurate or the least inaccurate version of the future, I'd say I'd recommend the Ian Banks books, the culture books.
2:49:27Elon MuskIt's not actually a series. It's like sci fi books about the future. They're generally called the culture books. Iain Banks culture books. It's worth reading those.
2:49:37Joe RoganWhen did he write these?
2:49:39Elon MuskHe started writing them in the 70s and I think he. The last one, I think he was. I think it was written just like around, I don't know, maybe 2010 or something.
2:49:49Elon MuskI'm not sure exactly. Yeah, yeah.
2:49:52Joe RoganScottish author, ian banks from 87 to 2012. Interesting.
2:49:58Elon MuskBut he wrote his first book, Consider Flevus. I think he started writing that in the 70s. These books are incredible, by the way. Incredible books.
2:50:12Joe Rogan4.6 stars on Amazon. Interesting.
2:50:17Elon MuskSo
2:50:20Joe Roganthis gives me hope.
2:50:22Elon MuskYeah, yeah.
2:50:22Joe RoganThis is the first time I've ever thought about it this way.
2:50:25Elon MuskYeah, well, I mean, I often ask people, what is the future that you want? And they have to think about it for a second because they were usually tied up in whatever the daily struggles are.
2:50:39Elon MuskBut you say, what is the future that you want? And generally sustainable abundance. Or at least folks say, what about a future where there's sustainable abundance? Like, oh yeah, that's a pretty good future.
2:50:54Elon MuskSo, you know, if. And that future is attainable with AI and robotics. But you know, like I said, not every path is a good path. But I think if we push it in the direction of maximally truth seeking and curious, then I think AI will want to take care of humanity and foster humanity because we're interesting.
2:51:36Elon MuskAnd if it hasn't been programmed to think that all straight white males should die, which Gemini was basically programmed to do it, at least first, they seem to have fixed that, hopefully fixed it.
2:51:49Joe RoganBut don't you think culturally we're getting away from that mindset and that people
2:51:55Elon Muskrealize how preposterous that all is, we are getting away from it. So we are getting. At least it knows. AI mostly knows to hide things. But like, like I said, there is that.
2:52:08Elon MuskI think I still have that as I had that as my like penned post on X, which was like, hey, wait a second guys, we still have every AI except Grok is Saying that basically straight white male should die and this is a problem and we should fix it, you know, but simply me saying that is like.
2:52:29Elon MuskTends to generally result in them, like, ooh, that is kind of bad. Maybe we should just. We should not have all straight white males die. I think they'll say also all straight Asian males should also die as well.
2:52:45Elon MuskThey don't like generally the AI and the media, which. Back in the day, the media was racist against black people and sexist against women. Back in the day, now it is racist against white people and Asians and sexist against men.
2:53:11Elon MuskThey just like being racist and sexist. I think they just want to change the target, so. But really they just shouldn't be racist and sexist at all, you know?
2:53:24Joe RoganYeah, ideally that would be nice.
2:53:25Elon MuskThat would be nice.
2:53:27Joe RoganAnd it's kind of crazy that we were kind of moving in that general direction until around 2012, and then everything ramped up online and everybody was accused of being a Nazi and everybody was transphobic and racist and sexist and homophobic and everything got exaggerated to the point where it was this wild witch hunt where everyone was a Columbo looking for racism.
2:53:48Elon MuskYeah, yeah, totally. Well, but they were openly anti white and often openly anti Asian.
2:53:55Joe RoganAnd then this new sentiment that you cannot be racist against white people because racism is power and influence. Okay. No, it's not.
2:54:05Elon MuskYeah. Racism is racism in the absolute. So, you know, and there just needs to be consistency. So if it's okay to have, let's say black or Asian or Indian or pride, it should be okay to have white pride, too.
2:54:23Joe RoganYeah.
2:54:25Elon MuskSo that's just a consistency question. So, you know, if it's okay to be proud of one religion, it should be okay to be proud of, I guess, all religions, provided they're.
2:54:39Elon MuskThey're not like, oppressive. Yeah. Or don't. Like, as long as part of that religion is not, like, exterminating people who are not in that religion.
2:54:47Joe RoganRight.
2:54:49Elon MuskSo it's really just like a consistency bias or just ensuring consistency to eliminate bias. So if it is possible to be racist against one race, it is possible to be racist against any race?
2:55:14Joe RoganOf course.
2:55:15Elon MuskLogically, yes.
2:55:16Joe RoganYeah. And arguing against that, that's when, you know, you're.
2:55:19Elon MuskIt's a logical inconsistency that makes AIs go insane and people. And people go insane. Yes. But like the, like, you can't simultaneously say that there's systemic racist oppression, but also that races don't exist, that race is a social construct, which is it.
2:55:46Elon MuskYou know, you also can't say that, you know, anyone who steps foot in America is automatically an American. Except for the. The people that originally came here.
2:55:59Joe RoganExactly, exactly. Except for the colonizers.
2:56:02Elon MuskYeah, except for the evil colonizers who came here.
2:56:05Joe RoganRight.
2:56:06Elon MuskSo which one is it? Like if you. If as soon as you step foot in a place you are. That you are just as American as everyone else, then that would have applied.
2:56:15Elon MuskIf you apply that consistently, then the original white settlers were also just as American as everyone else. Yeah. Logically. Logically.
2:56:25Joe RoganOne more thing that I have to talk to you about before you leave is the rescuing of the people from the space station which we talked about. You were planning it the last time you were here.
2:56:40Joe RoganThe lack of coverage that that got in mainstream media was one of the most shocking things.
2:56:47Elon MuskYeah, they totally memory hold that thing. Wild. Yes. It's like it didn't exist.
2:56:52Joe RoganThose people would be dead. They'd be stuck up there.
2:56:55Elon MuskWell, they'd probably still be alive, but they'd be having bone density issues because of prolonged exposure to zero gravity.
2:57:03Joe RoganWell, they were already up there for like eight months, right?
2:57:05Elon MuskYeah.
2:57:06Joe RoganWhich is an insanely long time. It takes forever to recover just from that.
2:57:11Elon MuskYeah. They're only supposed to be at the space station for three to six months maximum. So.
2:57:16Joe RoganOne of the things you told me that was so crazy was that you could have gotten them sooner, but.
2:57:20Elon MuskYeah, but for political reasons, they did not want SpaceX or me to be associated with returning the astronauts before the election.
2:57:32Joe RoganThat is so wild that that's a fact.
2:57:36Elon MuskFirst of all, we absolutely could have done it, so.
2:57:39Joe RoganBut even though you did do it and you did it after the election, it received almost no media coverage anyway.
2:57:45Elon MuskYes. Because nothing good can the media, which is essentially a far left prophecy, the legacy mainstream media is a far left propaganda machine. And so anything, any story that is positive about someone who is not part of the sort of far left tribe will not get any coverage.
2:58:05Elon MuskI could save a busload of orphans and it wouldn't get a single news story.
2:58:11Joe RoganYeah, it's. It really is nuts. It was nuts to watch because even though it was discussed on podcasts and it was discussed on X and it was discussed on social media, it still was a blip in the news cycle.
2:58:25Joe RoganIt was very quick. It was in and out. And because it was successful launch and you did rescue those people, nobody got hurt and there was nothing really. There was no blood to talk about.
2:58:36Elon MuskRight.
2:58:36Joe RoganJust fucking in and out.
2:58:38Elon MuskYeah, absolutely. Well, and as you saw firsthand with the starship launch, starship is, at least by some would consider it to be the most amazing engineering project that's happening on Earth right now.
2:58:56Elon MuskOutside of maybe AI or AI and robotics, but certainly in terms of a spectacle to see it is the most spectacular thing that is happening on Earth right now is the starship launch program, which anyone can go and see.
2:59:12Elon MuskIf they just go to South Texas and they can just rent a hotel room, low cost, in South Padre island or in Brownsville and you can see the launch and you can drive right past the factory because it's on a public highway.
2:59:26Elon MuskBut it gets no coverage. Or what coverage it does get was like rocket blew up coverage, right?
2:59:33Joe RoganYeah. Oh, he's a fuckwit. The rocket blew up.
2:59:35Elon MuskLike the Sasha program is vastly, vastly more capable than the entire Apollo moon program. Vastly more capable. This is a spaceship that is designed to make life multi planetary, to carry millions of people across the heavens to another planet.
2:59:59Elon MuskThe Apollo program could only send astronauts to the moon for a few hours at a time. Like they could send two. The entire fall program could only send astronauts to visit the moon very briefly and then for a few hours and then depart.
3:00:17Elon MuskThe starship program could create an entire lunar base with a million people. The magnitudes are different, very different magnitudes here.
3:00:30Joe RoganSo what was the political resistance?
3:00:32Elon MuskThere's basically no coverage of it.
3:00:34Joe RoganYeah, What I wanted to ask you is like, so what were the conversations leading up to the rescue like when you were like, I can get them out way quicker.
3:00:46Elon MuskYeah, well, I mean, you know, I raised this a few times, but it was the, I was told instructions came from the White House that, you know, that there should be no attempt to rescue before the election.
3:01:03Joe RoganThat should be illegal. That, that really should be a horrendous miscarriage of justice for those poor people that were stuck on that.
3:01:14Elon MuskYeah, it is. It is crazy.
3:01:16Joe RoganHave you ever talked to those folks afterwards? Did you have conversations with them?
3:01:20Elon MuskYeah, I mean, they're not going to say anything political to, you know, they're not like, they're never going to say thank you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice. Yeah, Absolutely.
3:01:28Elon MuskSo.
3:01:30Joe RoganBut the instructions came down from the White House. You cannot rescue them because politically this is a bad hand of cards.
3:01:40Elon MuskI mean, they didn't say because politically it's a bad hand of cards. They just said they were not interested in any rescue operation before the election.
3:01:53Elon MuskYeah. So what did that feel like? I wasn't surprised, but it's crazy. Yeah.
3:02:00Joe RoganBecause Biden could have authorized it and they could have said the Biden administration is helping bring those people back, throw you a little funding, give you some money to do it.
3:02:09Joe RoganThe Biden administration, they funded these people being returned.
3:02:14Elon MuskYeah, the Biden administration was not exactly my best friend, especially after I, you know, helped Trump get elected. Get elected. Which, I mean, some people still think, you know, Trump is like, the devil, basically.
3:02:33Elon MuskAnd, I mean, I think Trump, actually, He's not perfect, but he's not evil. Trump is not evil. I spent a lot of time with him, and he's. I mean, he's a product of his time, but he is not.
3:02:49Elon MuskHe's not evil.
3:02:52Joe RoganNo, I don't think he's evil either. But if you look at the media coverage.
3:02:56Elon MuskThe media. The media treats him like he's super evil.
3:02:58Joe RoganYeah, it's pretty shocking if you look at the amount of negative coverage. Like, one of the things that I looked at the other day was mainstream media coverage of you, Trump, a bunch of different public figures, and then it
3:03:12Elon Muskwas like, 96% negative or something crazy.
3:03:15Joe RoganAnd then Mamdani, which is like 95% positive.
3:03:19Elon MuskRight. I mean, Mamdani is a charismatic swindler. I mean, you gotta hand it to him. Like, he can light up a stage, but he has just been a swindler his entire life.
3:03:37Elon MuskAnd, you know, and I think.
3:03:46Elon MuskI mean, he's likely to win. He's likely to be mayor of New York City. Very likely. Yeah, very likely.
3:03:52Joe RoganI think polymarket has it at. What. What is the.
3:03:56Elon MuskYeah, that sounds pretty likely.
3:03:57Joe RoganThat's great. I'm not sure.
3:03:59Elon MuskThe 6% are, you know, so. So, yeah, so that's.
3:04:04Joe RoganWell, it's also, like, who's on the other side? The fucking Guardian angel guy with the beret and Andrew Cuomo, who doesn't even have a party. Like, the Democrats don't even want him.
3:04:15Joe RoganSo you have those two options, and then you have the young kids who are like, finally, socialism.
3:04:25Elon MuskYeah. They don't know what they're talking about, obviously. So, you know, like, you just look at this. How many boats come from Cuba to Florida and how many. And how many boats.
3:04:39Elon MuskBecause, you know, there's like, a constant. I was thinking, like, how many boats are accumulating on the shores of Florida coming from Cuba?
3:04:45Joe RoganRight?
3:04:48Elon MuskThere's a whole bunch of free boats that you could, if you want to go, take them back to Cuba. Pretty close, but for some reason, people don't do that.
3:04:59Elon MuskWhy are the boats only coming in this direction?
3:05:03Joe RoganWell, who are the most rabid capitalists in America? The fucking Cubans.
3:05:07Elon MuskAbsolutely.
3:05:08Joe RoganYeah. They're like, we've seen how this story goes.
3:05:11Elon MuskWe do not want exactly.
3:05:13Joe RoganFuck off. Cubans in Miami. They don't want to hear any bullshit. They don't want to hear any socialism bullshit. They're like, no, no, no. We know what this actually is.
3:05:23Joe RoganThis isn't just some fucking dream. Yeah.
3:05:26Elon MuskIt's extreme. Govern oppression. That's what I always meant. It's a nightmare. And like an obvious way you can
3:05:33Joe Rogantell
3:05:36Elon Muskwhich ideology is the bad one is who has to which ideology is building a wall to keep people in and prevent them from escaping. Right. Like so East Berlin built the wall, not West Berlin.
3:05:52Elon MuskThey built the wall because people were trying to escape from communism to West Berlin. But there wasn't anyone going from West Berlin to East Berlin. That's why the communists had to build a wall to keep people from escaping.
3:06:07Joe RoganThey're going to have to build a wall around New York City.
3:06:10Elon MuskYeah. So when you say this guy's a problematic swell, that an ideology is problematic if that ideology has to bull day wool to keep people in with machine guns and shoot you if you try to leave.
3:06:23Joe RoganAlso, there's no examples of it being successful ever. We're working out for people now. There's examples of a bunch of lies like North Korea. Give this land to the state.
3:06:33Joe RoganWe'll be in control of food. No one goes hungry. No. Now no one can grow food but the government. And we'll tell you exactly what you eat. And you eat very little.
3:06:41Elon MuskRight. Yeah.
3:06:42Joe RoganWhen you say Mamdani's a swindler. I know he has a bunch of fake accents that he used to use.
3:06:47Elon MuskYeah.
3:06:47Joe RoganAnd you know, but what else has he done that makes him a swindler?
3:06:56Elon MuskWell, I guess if you say what I mean, if you say to any audience whatever that audience wants to hear. Instead of what? Instead of having a consistent message, I would say that that is a swindley thing to do.
3:07:13Elon MuskAnd. Yeah,
3:07:22Elon MuskYeah. But, but he is, he is charismatic.
3:07:26Joe RoganYeah. Good looking guy, smart, charismatic.
3:07:29Elon MuskYeah.
3:07:30Joe RoganGreat on a microphone.
3:07:31Elon MuskYeah, yeah, yeah.
3:07:32Joe RoganAnd what the young people want to see, you know, like this ethnic guy who's young and vibrant and has all these socialist ideas, aligns with them and, you know, they're a bunch of broke dorks just out of college like, yay, let's vote for this.
3:07:50Joe RoganAnd there's a lot of them and they're, they're activated, they're motivated.
3:07:58Elon MuskI guess we'll see what happens here.
3:08:00Joe RoganWhat do you think happens if he WINS because like 1% of New York City is responsible for 50% of their tax base, which is kind of nuts. 50% of the tax revenue comes from 1% of the population.
3:08:16Joe RoganAnd those are the people that you're scaring off.
3:08:23Elon MuskYou know, you lose one half of 1%, hopefully. The stuff he said, you know, about government takeovers of like that all the stores should be the government, basically.
3:08:36Joe RoganWell, I don't think he said that. I think he said they want to do government supermarkets, some state run or city run supermarkets.
3:08:44Elon MuskYeah. Well, it's just the government is the DMV at scale. So you have to say like, do you want the DMV running your supermarket?
3:08:53Joe RoganRight.
3:08:54Elon MuskWas your last experience at the dmv Amazing. And if it wasn't, you probably don't want the government doing things.
3:09:00Joe RoganImagine if they were responsible for getting you blueberries.
3:09:03Elon MuskYeah, it's not going to be good. I mean the thing about communism is it was all bread lines and bad shoes, you know, do you want ugly shoes and bread lines?
3:09:16Elon MuskBecause that's what communism gets you.
3:09:19Joe RoganIt's going to be interesting to see what happens and whether or not they snap out of it and overcorrect and go to some Rudy Giuliani type character next. Because it's been a long time since there was any sort of Republican leader there.
3:09:43Elon MuskWe live in the most interesting of times because we face the, you know, simultaneously face civilizational decline and incredible prosperity. And these timelines are interwoven. So if Mamdani's policies are put into place, especially at scale, it would be a catastrophic decline in living standards, not just for the rich, but for everyone, as has been the case with every socialist experiment.
3:10:29Elon MuskSo. But then as you pointed out, the irony is that the ultimate capitalist thing of AI and robotics, enabling prosperity for all, an abundance of goods and services. Actually the capitalist implementation of AI and robotics, assuming it goes down the good path, is actually what results in the communist utopia.
3:11:00Elon MuskBecause plate is an irony maximizer.
3:11:03Joe RoganRight. An actual socialism of maximum abundance of high income people.
3:11:11Elon MuskUniversal high income.
3:11:12Joe RoganYeah.
3:11:14Elon MuskThe problem with communism is it's universal low income. It's not that everyone gets elevated so that everyone gets oppressed except for a very small minority of politicians who live lives of luxury.
3:11:29Elon MuskThat's what's happening every time it's been done.
3:11:31Joe RoganYeah.
3:11:33Elon MuskSo but then the, the actual communist utopia, if everyone gets anything they want, will be. Will be if. Will be achieved. If it is achieved, it will be achieved via capitalism.
3:11:52Elon MuskBecause fate is an irony maximizer.
3:11:56Joe RoganI feel like we should probably end it on that. Is there anything else?
3:11:59Elon MuskThe most Ironic outcome is the most likely, especially if entertaining.
3:12:03Joe RoganWell, everything has been entertaining. As long as the bad things aren't happening to you, it's quite fascinating. And it's never a boring moment.
3:12:11Elon MuskYes. So there's. I do have a theory of why, like if simulation theory is true, then it is actually very likely that the most interesting outcome is the most likely because only the simulations that are interesting will continue.
3:12:37Elon MuskThe simulators will stop any simulations that are boring because they're not interesting.
3:12:42Joe RoganBut here's the question about the simulation theory. Is the simulation run by anyone or
3:12:47Elon Muskis it would be run by someone, it would be run by some force, the program. Like in this reality that we live in, we run simulations all the time.
3:12:59Elon MuskSo when we try to figure out if the rocket's going to make it, we run thousands, sometimes millions of simulations just to figure out which path is the good path for the rocket and where can it go wrong, where can it fail?
3:13:17Elon MuskBut when we do these, I say at this point, millions of simulations of what can happen with the rocket, we ignore the ones that are where everything goes right because we just care about, we have to address the situations where it goes wrong.
3:13:35Elon MuskSo basically, and for AI simulations as well, like all these things, we keep the simulations going that are the most interesting to us. So if simulation theory is accurate, if it is true, who knows, Then the, the simulators, they will continue to run the simulations that are most interesting.
3:14:05Elon MuskTherefore, from a Darwinian perspective, the only surviving simulations will be the most interesting ones. And in order to avoid getting turned off, the only rule is you must keep it interesting because the boring simulations will be terminated.
3:14:24Joe RoganAre you still completely convinced that this is a simulation?
3:14:28Elon MuskI didn't say I was completely convinced.
3:14:29Joe RoganWell, you said it's like the odds of it not being are in the billions. I guess that's not completely. Because you're saying there's a chance.
3:14:38Elon MuskWhat are the odds that we're in base reality?
3:14:45Elon MuskWell, given that we're able to create increasingly sophisticated simulations. So if you think of, say, video games and how video games have gone from very simple video games like Pong with two rectangles in a square to video games today being photorealistic, with millions of people playing simultaneously, and all of that has occurred in our lifetime.
3:15:08Elon MuskSo if that trend continues, video games will be indistinguishable from reality. The fidelity of the game will be such that you don't know if that what you're seeing is a real video or a fake video.
3:15:24Elon MuskAnd like AI generated videos at this point, you can sometimes tell it's an AI generated video, but often you cannot tell. And soon you will not really just not be able to tell.
3:15:37Elon MuskSo if that's happening in our direct observation and we'll create millions, if not billions of photorealistic simulations of reality, then what are the odds that we're in base reality versus someone else's simulation?
3:15:59Joe RoganWell, isn't it just possible that the simulation is inevitable, but that we are in base reality building towards a simulation?
3:16:08Elon MuskWe're making simulations, so we're making simulations. You can just think of photorealistic video games as being simulations. And especially as you apply AI in these video games, the characters in the video games will be incredibly interesting to talk to.
3:16:31Elon MuskThey won't just have a limited dialogue tree where if you go to the crossbow merchant and you try to talk about any subject except buying a crossbow, they just want to talk about selling you a crossbow.
3:16:43Elon MuskBut with AI based non player characters, you'll be able to have an elaborate conversation with no dialogue tree.
3:16:50Joe RoganWell, that might be the solution for meaning for people. Just log in and you could be a fucking vampire and whatever you live in Avatar Land, you could do it.
3:17:00Joe RoganYou could do whatever you want. You don't have to think about money
3:17:03Elon Muskor Ready player one?
3:17:04Joe RoganYeah, literally. Yeah, but with higher living standards. Yeah, you don't have to be in a little trailer.
3:17:11Elon MuskI mean, I think this people do want to have some amount of struggle or something they want to push against. But it could be, you know, playing sports or playing a game.
3:17:24Joe RoganIt could be easily playing a game. And especially playing a game where you're now no longer worried about like physical attributes like athletics, like bad joints and hips and stuff like that.
3:17:34Joe RoganNow it's completely digital. But yet you do have meaning. And pursuing this thing that you're doing all day, whatever the fuck that means, it's going to be weird.
3:17:48Elon MuskIt's going to be interesting.
3:17:49Joe RoganIt's going to be very interesting.
3:17:52Elon MuskThe most interesting and usually ironic outcome is the most likely. All right, That's a good predictor of the future.
3:18:02Joe RoganThank you. Thanks for being here. Really appreciate, appreciate your time. I know you're a busy man, so this means a lot. You come here to do this. Thank you.
3:18:12Joe RoganBye everybody.